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Thread: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The hourly scale was used only to illustrate the point that an effective wage cut had been proposed. Whenever the change in wages < change in work time, one is dealing with an effective wage cut. The use of hours merely illustrated that principle.

    Compensation can and should be based on factors not limited to work time. What those factors should be extend beyond the point of whether or not there was an effective wage cut.


    I guess the fair way to approach this would be to take the average YEARLY salary and cross it against the increase in hours worked.

    Using your example:

    Average salary = $51,000 yearly
    Increase of 2% = $52,122 yearly an increase of $1,122.
    Increase in hours worked proposed was 40 minutes per work day X 260 days of actual in school work (Roughly does vary across the nation) = 174 hours (Rounding up) extra hours worked.
    $51,000 / 365 = $139.72 per each day of the year regardless of whether they're actually in school working.
    $139.72 / 7 = $19.96 per hour.
    $52,122 / 365 = $142.80 per day worked.
    $142.80 / 7.7 = $18.54 per hour worked.

    Conclusion effective pay rate decreases per hour worked. However, if the 2% increase is tied to the effective hourly rate of the teachers then the salary would be more than $51,122 as noted above. I did not read how the 2% increase was factored in. If factored into the hourly rate, then obviously the salary would increase and this whole conversation is moot.

    Agreed?


    Tim-
    Last edited by Hicup; 06-12-12 at 02:30 PM.
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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    if the 2% increase is tied to the effective hourly rate of the teachers
    Nominal pay increases on salaried individuals are not rendered at an hourly rate; the 2% pay increase is a 2% increase in the nominal salary. I don't know why you're having such a hard time understanding this.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Nominal pay increases on salaried individuals are not rendered at an hourly rate; the 2% pay increase is a 2% increase in the nominal salary. I don't know why you're having such a hard time understanding this.
    I'm having a hard time with it because Don was incorrect with his numbers, the math looks a lot different when you factor in the actual school day which is 5 hour and 45 minutes.

    Chicago public school students have the shortest school day — 5 hours and 45 minutes — among the nation's 50 largest districts, according to a 2007 report from the National Council on Teacher Quality — part of the reason Emanuel moved to lengthen it.
    The pay rate decrease gets even larger.

    That said, I would still tie pay to performance and NOT all teachers are alike and thus not all deserving of one show fits all pay scale. Just like not all students are alike, neither are their teachers.


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    But again, teachers are salaried. Pay increases are salary increases, not hourly. So your example doesn't hold, and Don's does.
    And because they are salaried, you can't monitor their time, because if you did, then you can be easily sued to force overtime pay.

    Because teachers are salaried, it doesn't matter how long or short their work day, or work year in this case, is. They are salaried employees, therefore they will work however long is required to perform their job tasks. Fair Labor Standards Act.
    Last edited by Samhain; 06-12-12 at 02:51 PM.

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
    And because they are salaried, you can't monitor their time, because if you did, then you can be easily sued to force overtime pay.

    Because teachers are salaried, it doesn't matter how long or short their work day, or work year in this case, is. They are salaried employees, therefore they will work however long is required to perform their job tasks. Fair Labor Standards Act.
    Agreed, I was going to go there next, but apparently it is ok to the CTU that they continue to work a 5.45 minute work day while their school district continues to be one of the worst performing in the nation. Oh, and on top of that we also want a 24% pay increase coz we're just so great at being mediocre..


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    I guess the fair way to approach this would be to take the average YEARLY salary and cross it against the increase in hours worked.

    Using your example:

    Average salary = $51,000 yearly
    Increase of 2% = $52,122 yearly an increase of $1,122.
    Increase in hours worked proposed was 40 minutes per work day X 260 days of actual in school work (Roughly does vary across the nation) = 174 hours (Rounding up) extra hours worked.
    $51,000 / 365 = $139.72 per each day of the year regardless of whether they're actually in school working.
    $139.72 / 7 = $19.96 per hour.
    $52,122 / 365 = $142.80 per day worked.
    $142.80 / 7.7 = $18.54 per hour worked.

    Conclusion effective pay rate decreases per hour worked.
    Exactly. There are numerous ways to illustrate that point. I tried to take the simplest, a strict hourly approach.

    However, if the 2% increase is tied to the effective hourly rate of the teachers then the salary would be more than $51,122 as noted above. I did not read how the 2% increase was factored in. If factored into the hourly rate, then obviously the salary would increase and this whole conversation is moot.
    In that case, I agree that it would be a moot point. However, as they receive an annual salary, one is dealing with a 2% increase from current compensation, not a 2% increase in the effective hourly rate that would be tied to the expanded work days.

    Having said that, I recognize that Chicago faces some major fiscal challenges. The union will need to compromise, but the City will likely have to increase its offer. Its current offer is a 5-year contract with a guaranteed 2% raise in the first year. That's inferior to the last contract that was agreed with the police (10% increase guaranteed over 5 years). There's no indication that the City will even attempt to offer its police officers terms similar to what it is offering its teachers (guaranteed 2% raise over the next 5 years), much less ask them to increase their workdays by 10% in exchange for that compensation.

    I am not in any way suggesting that the City concede the union's maximum position. Far from it. The City should offer reasonable terms consistent with its financial realities in exchange for agreement on reasonable reforms (preferably focused on increasing student learning outcomes that are truly controllable variables).

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    So the city wants to increase the amount of time the teachers work while implementing an effective pay freeze/cut (2% raise in nominal wages vs. 2%+ inflation). So in real terms workers wages will go down as their hours increase, and the teachers are the ones being greedy?
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Watching people deny that teachers have any impact on student performance is mind boggling. To think it's gone so far that it's the warcry of teachers that "we don't matter", "no give us a ****ing raise". Funny stuff. Sad too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    You can have the best teachers in the world but if you give them nothing but rocks with which to teach children in a warzone where the children don't have motivation to learn due to the environment in which they live you are going to have poor student performance.
    I don't know if you're just being facetious or are really that ignorant.

    The question is not whether or not those hypothetical disadvantaged war-torn children will have overall poor performance, it's whether their performance will be improved compared to students in similar situations, who had worse teachers. How did you miss that.

    Quote Originally Posted by KC
    You cannot measure teacher performance based on student performance
    nonsense
    so how will you measure teacher performance?
    I'm going to venture a guess the same way nearly every other organization, in every other industry, including private education, does. It may come as a surprise to you but out of the millions of jobs in the U.S., a great deal of them involve employee performance measurement, goal setting, evaluation, managers who make hire/fire, promotion/raise, etc., decisions. Somehow they get it right on balance. But teachers are fundamentally incapable of getting this right, despite everyone else, even private teachers, demonstrating that's absurd?

    Surely your years in the marketplace doing training or receiving it, seeing co-worker performance and underperformance, as a manager, business leader, etc., taught you these really basic facts of reality right?
    Last edited by Mach; 06-12-12 at 03:14 PM.

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Watching people deny that teachers have any impact on student performance
    Nobody did that. Your entire post is a straw man.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Watching people deny that teachers have any impact on student performance is mind boggling.
    Nobody has made that argument outside of your imagination. The argument being made is that teacher performance is not the sole influence on student performance.

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