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Thread: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Beyond a teachers control, yes, however these metrics are not beyond control when structuring a pay scale.

    Tim-
    So you are proposing basing a teacher's pay off factors over which the teacher has little to no control.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Teachers are salaried, Hicup.
    Exactly, but Don used a hourly pay rate example, which is not a fair way to measure the salary of teachers. If he's going to use a salary based measurment then there are other factors that go into a salary compensation package that must be included when trying to decide if the teachers are beiung paid less and working more. I agree that if one factors just the numbers it is an effective pay cut, BUT, it is not like the teachers are technically NOT making more or being compensated because as I've shown, they are actually being compensated for that extra 40 minutes they work.


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Beyond a teachers control, yes, however these metrics are not beyond control when structuring a pay scale.

    Tim-
    And why would you want to punish a teacher for something he/she cannot control?

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Exactly, but Don used a hourly pay rate example, which is not a fair way to measure the salary of teachers. If he's going to use a salary based measurment then there are other factors that go into a salary compensation package that must be included when trying to decide if the teachers are beiung paid less and working more. I agree that if one factors just the numbers it is an effective pay cut, BUT, it is not like the teachers are technically NOT making more or being compensated because as I've shown, they are actually being compensated for that extra 40 minutes they work.


    Tim-
    You have to be delusional to think that making less per hour is not a pay cut. That is by definition a cut in pay.
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 06-12-12 at 01:36 PM.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    So you are proposing basing a teacher's pay off factors over which the teacher has little to no control.
    What kind of question is that? It works both ways doesn't it? If the child has a great home life, and interested parents the teachers job is also easier, and wouldn't it all work out in the wash? What I'm saying is that everyone knows that not all children have the most ideal home life and that this could be factored in to the compensation packages based on teacher performance. Documentation is a good way to provide auditable metrics. IN addition, we already know that all kids (on average) can learn. Charter schools have shown that to be true even of the most poorest among us, so that kids can't learn is nonesense, but do we pay our teachers based on how well their home life is, or how well they score on standard tests?

    You can't have it both ways as I've shown that kids that do have good home environments are easier to teach, so it's a wash.

    I mean then there are teachers who REALLY can't teach, and these one's need to go.


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    You have to be delusional to think that making less per hour is not a pay cut. That is by definition a cut in pay.
    What? They're making $20.40 per hour with Don's example? That is an increase not a decrease.

    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    And why would you want to punish a teacher for something he/she cannot control?
    Based on the above post, I guess so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup
    What? They're making $20.40 per hour with Don's example? That is an increase not a decrease.
    If I pay you $1 for five widgets in one transaction, then $1.10 for six widgets in another, did the price of widgets go up or down?
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 06-12-12 at 01:39 PM.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post
    Fire them all and hire new ones.
    Yeah, because there are just mountains of equally qualified teachers waiting in the wings to take their place

    Reminds me of the idiots who said "replace all the NBA players with college kids!" during the lockout.
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    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    What kind of question is that? It works both ways doesn't it? If the child has a great home life, and interested parents the teachers job is also easier, and wouldn't it all work out in the wash? What I'm saying is that everyone knows that not all children have the most ideal home life and that this could be factored in to the compensation packages based on teacher performance. Documentation is a good way to provide auditable metrics. IN addition, we already know that all kids (on average) can learn. Charter schools have shown that to be true even of the most poorest among us, so that kids can't learn is nonesense, but do we pay our teachers based on how well their home life is, or how well they score on standard tests?

    You can't have it both ways as I've shown that kids that do have good home environments are easier to teach, so it's a wash.

    I mean then there are teachers who REALLY can't teach, and these one's need to go.

    Tim-
    You mentioned "auditable metrics." By this do you mean measurement and assessment instruments?

    Snarky aside: I agree that incompetent teachers need to go; the pity is that the students who don't want to be there and who are disruptive and interfere with others' learning need to go too.

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Exactly, but Don used a hourly pay rate example, which is not a fair way to measure the salary of teachers.
    The hourly scale was used only to illustrate the point that an effective wage cut had been proposed. Whenever the change in wages < change in work time, one is dealing with an effective wage cut. The use of hours merely illustrated that principle.

    Compensation can and should be based on factors not limited to work time. What those factors should be extend beyond the point of whether or not there was an effective wage cut.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 06-12-12 at 01:44 PM.

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