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Thread: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

  1. #41
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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Well, I didn’t read the whole thread but if they want a 24% raise, I'd tie any raise to the proficiency of graduating students.
    There is not a direct causation between teacher performance and student performance.

    Right now, City of Chicago teachers are given raises based on "steps and lanes" -- steps being 'another year in front of the blackboard' and lanes being more hours towards an advanced degree. We don't need advanced degrees. We need teachers who can teach. All the knowledge in the world -- all the degrees we have to offer -- mean nothing if we can't teach kids to read and write.
    A 1% to 5% pay increase, on average this is an increase in wages at pace with inflation (3% for 2011 IIRC), so the nominal increase in wages turns out to be no increase at all in real terms.

    The annual 4% raise was blocked in 2011 by the board of education.
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 06-12-12 at 12:52 PM.
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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    There is not a direct causation between teacher performance and student performance.

    A 1% to 5% pay increase, on average this is an increase in wages at pace with inflation (3% for 2011 IIRC), so the nominal increase in wages turns out to be no increase at all in real terms.

    The annual 4% raise was blocked in 2011 by the board of education.
    If there isn't a direct "causation" between teacher performance and student performance, then perhaps we don't even need degreed teachers. In fact, I'm sure we don't -- especially in CPS. Student performance is down right embarrassing.

    As to the annual 4% raise? What don't people understand about recessions? About deficits? Most people in this country didn't get 4% raises last year. Most people are being asked to make some sacrifices. Most people are being asked to work harder and make do with less. The teachers' unions are greedy pigs.
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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    If there isn't a direct "causation" between teacher performance and student performance, then perhaps we don't even need degreed teachers. In fact, I'm sure we don't -- especially in CPS. Student performance is down right embarrassing.
    You can have the best teachers in the world but if you give them nothing but rocks with which to teach children in a warzone where the children don't have motivation to learn due to the environment in which they live you are going to have poor student performance.

    I don't know if you're just being facetious or are really that ignorant.

    As to the annual 4% raise? What don't people understand about recessions? About deficits? Most people in this country didn't get 4% raises last year. Most people are being asked to make some sacrifices. Most people are being asked to work harder and make do with less. The teachers' unions are greedy pigs.
    I brought up the 4% raise to show that they do not necessarily get annual raises, as their contract states the board votes on it.

    As for the "so what" attitude, I find it absolutely disgusting that this "shared sacrifice" rhetoric is actually viewed as reasonable when it is not the normal working people that should sacrifice but the people that got rich off causing this crisis in the first place (what you hypocritically call "job creators"). The fact that you think that teachers asking for a raise commensurate with in increase in work are "greedy" just shows that you're completely unreasonable and/or delusional.

    Your argument:
    1. Cut taxes!
    2. Oh no, deficit! Cut spending!
    3. "Shared sacrifice"
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 06-12-12 at 01:04 PM.
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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    You can have the best teachers in the world but if you give them nothing but rocks with which to teach children in a warzone where the children don't have motivation to learn due to the environment in which they live you are going to have poor student performance.

    I don't know if you're just being facetious or are really that ignorant.



    I brought up the 4% raise to show that they do not necessarily get annual raises, as their contract states the board votes on it.

    As for the "so what" attitude, I find it absolutely disgusting that this "shared sacrifice" rhetoric is actually viewed as reasonable when it is not the normal working people that should sacrifice but the people that got rich off causing this crisis in the first place (what you hypocritically call "job creators"). The fact that you think that teachers asking for a raise commensurate with in increase in work are "greedy" just shows that you're completely unreasonable and/or delusional.

    Your argument:
    1. Cut taxes!
    2. Oh no, deficit! Cut spending!
    3. "Shared sacrifice"
    So then, the reverse would also ring true according to your philosophy; that is, if they want more pay for more work, then wouldn't it be also fair to lower pay for poor performance? Or is it your contention that their pay should only ever go up, NOT down for any reason? I'm curious..


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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    This is dishonest. The CTU is fighting a pay cut in real terms.
    For those who don't understand KC's point, the following example offers an illustration.

    If teachers were paid for a 7-hour day (I don't have the numbers prior to the first increase in working hours) and earned $20 per hour (hypothetical figure, but any dollar amount would work), they would earn $140 per day. The Mayor has proposed increasing the workday to 7 hours and 40 minutes and guaranteed a 2% wage hike (no guarantees beyond the first year are offered). That would increase the daily compensation to $142.80 in this hypothetical case. The hourly compensation ($142.80 / 7.67 hours) would come to $18.62. That would represent a 6.9% cut in the hourly compensation figure (the wage increase would be < increase in working hours). Hence, there would be an effective wage cut and even before considering inflation, there would be a real wage cut. Once inflation were factored in, the real wage cut > 6.9%.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 06-12-12 at 01:17 PM.

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    So then, the reverse would also ring true according to your philosophy; that is, if they want more pay for more work, then wouldn't it be also fair to lower pay for poor performance? Tim-
    You assume that students performance is only influenced by the teacher. How is the teacher responsible for a student that doesn't want to learn or a student's parents that don't give a **** and don't provide an environment for the student to study?

    There are factors that are simply beyond a teacher's control.

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup
    So then, the reverse would also ring true according to your philosophy; that is, if they want more pay for more work, then wouldn't it be also fair to lower pay for poor performance? Or is it your contention that their pay should only ever go up, NOT down for any reason? I'm curious..
    You cannot measure teacher performance based on student performance, so how will you measure teacher performance?

    Further, explicit pay cuts while not unheard of are fairly uncommon. Companies are more willing to reduce benefits on a group scale or wait until it is economical to lay off employees than target individual employees' paychecks for cuts. The idea of fluctuating pay based on performance is unrealistic in any place of business, not just here.

    Quote Originally Posted by don
    For those who don't understand KC's point, the following example offers an illustration.

    If teachers were paid for a 7-hour day (I don't have the numbers prior to the first increase in working hours) and earned $20 per hour (hypothetical figure, but any dollar amount would work), they would earn $140 per day. The Mayor has proposed increasing the workday to 7 hours and 40 minutes and guaranteed a 2% wage hike (no guarantees beyond the first year are offered). That would increase the daily compensation to $142.80 in this hypothetical case. The hourly compensation ($142.80 / 7.67 hours) would come to $18.62. That would represent a 6.9% cut in the hourly compensation figure (the wage increase would be < increase in working hours). Hence, the terminology of a real wage cut.
    And this is not even factoring inflation into the equation, the largest factor in worker pay cuts over the past 40 years.

    EDIT: NVM you factored it in with your edit.
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 06-12-12 at 01:21 PM.
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  8. #48
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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    For those who don't understand KC's point, the following example offers an illustration.

    If teachers were paid for a 7-hour day (I don't have the numbers prior to the first increase in working hours) and earned $20 per hour (hypothetical figure, but any dollar amount would work), they would earn $140 per day. The Mayor has proposed increasing the workday to 7 hours and 40 minutes and guaranteed a 2% wage hike (no guarantees beyond the first year are offered). That would increase the daily compensation to $142.80 in this hypothetical case. The hourly compensation ($142.80 / 7.67 hours) would come to $18.62. That would represent a 6.9% cut in the hourly compensation figure (the wage increase would be < increase in working hours). Hence, there would be an effective wage cut and even before considering inflation, there would be a real wage cut. Once inflation were factored in, the real wage cut > 6.9%.
    Seems a bit misleading, Don, if, as you say the mayor is proposing a 2% pay increase is he increasing their salary, or the hourly rate? Not sure how it works in this scenario but the math is different if you use one or the other metric, is it an hourly raise of 2% or a salaries increase of 2%?

    Using your example:

    Hourly wage is $20 increase of 2% = $20.40 per hour worked.
    Previous work day of 7 hours (using your example) nets you $140
    increased work day 7 hours and 40 minutes at the new pay rate of $20.40 is 0.34 cent a minute = $13.60 for that extra 40 minutes.
    Total for new work day in compensation = $153.60 per work day.

    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Teachers are salaried, Hicup.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    You assume that students performance is only influenced by the teacher. How is the teacher responsible for a student that doesn't want to learn or a student's parents that don't give a **** and don't provide an environment for the student to study?

    There are factors that are simply beyond a teacher's control.
    Beyond a teachers control, yes, however these metrics are not beyond control when structuring a pay scale.

    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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