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Thread: Judge refuses to drop charges in Manning case

  1. #41
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    Re: Judge refuses to drop charges in Manning case

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    He leaked information to someone that was not an American. I might have had an inkling of sympathy for him if he had given the info to an American. But he didn't. He gave the info to a foreign national. That is what makes him a traitor.
    Treason isn't giving information to foreigners. It's giving information to the enemy. Meaning it's only applicable with nations with whom we are at war, or possibly likely to be at war. And even then, only if released specifically to agents of that country's government. I'd be really surprised if we ever went to war with Australia (Assange is Australian), and WikiLeaks isn't even officially headquartered anywhere, meaning that it is not in any country, and so cannot be representing anyone. Laws about classified documents aside, there is absolutely no way that Manning's actions qualify as treason. That's not what treason is.

    And, of course, holding our own democratic government responsible for when it acts against the benefit of its people and then keeps secrets about it... that should be protected. Would anyone here have prosecuted Deep Throat? I think not. I hope not. The same standard applies to Manning.
    Last edited by Paschendale; 06-11-12 at 02:29 AM.
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    Re: Judge refuses to drop charges in Manning case

    I wouldn't call him a traitor because he didn't sell these "secrets" to any particular entity. He released "secrets" involving many countries both friendly and enemies of the state indiscriminately showing a complete disregard for his position in the military and the responsibilities he voluntarily agreed to have. If nothing else he is a criminal who betrayed the trust bestowed in him but did not do it in order to "help" an enemy. He should be punished as a criminal; not a full blown traitor.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  3. #43
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    Re: Judge refuses to drop charges in Manning case

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    What is contained in the cables is actually somewhat irrelevant. It is not what was in them, but the fact that he choose to give themk to some one who did not have clearance. If I hold up a gas station at gunpoint and there is only 5 bucks in the regester, that does not change the fact that I held up a gas station at gunpoint.
    It would be a better analogy to have robbed a gas station when the register was empty.

  4. #44
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    Re: Judge refuses to drop charges in Manning case

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey Shane View Post
    It would be a better analogy to have robbed a gas station when the register was empty.
    An armed robbery attempt can carry the same penalty as armed robbery itself.

    How much time do criminal attempt to cmmit arm robbery carry - Avvo.com
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  5. #45
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    Re: Judge refuses to drop charges in Manning case

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I wouldn't call him a traitor because he didn't sell these "secrets" to any particular entity.
    Why would it matter if he sold the secrets or gave them away?If someone in the US gave nuke plans to the North Koreans he would still be just as much as a traitor as the guy sold nuke plans to the North Koreans.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  6. #46
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    Re: Judge refuses to drop charges in Manning case

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Read more @: Judge refuses to drop charges in Manning case - Americas - Al Jazeera English

    This information is vital to democracy. Secrecy is not good for democracy, its not good for the voters decisions. Will we punish all Whistleblowers now?

    Thoughts?
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    Response?
    Are you saying we should share all the plans for weapons systems and attack/defense plans we have at the Pentagon with our enemies? Sorry, but it is clear a military needs secrets. To protect democracy, we have oversight committees. Manning not only endangered American personnel with his stunt, but his actions probably resulted in some Afghan contacts being killed. We'll know for certain after the trial. I hope he goes away for a long, long time.

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    Re: Judge refuses to drop charges in Manning case

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Why would it matter if he sold the secrets or gave them away?
    Because:

    Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall
    He did none of these things. He released documents to a neutral source. He didn't adhere to an enemy or give an enemy aid and comfort of any kind.

    If someone in the US gave nuke plans to the North Koreans he would still be just as much as a traitor as the guy sold nuke plans to the North Koreans.
    That's not what happened here though is it? Good to see you don't lose your hyperbole when making ridiculous comparisons.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Judge refuses to drop charges in Manning case

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Why would it matter if he sold the secrets or gave them away?If someone in the US gave nuke plans to the North Koreans he would still be just as much as a traitor as the guy sold nuke plans to the North Koreans.
    Agreed. A traitorous act is a traitorous act regardless of the motive.

    UCMJ Article 106a—Espionage
    (1) Any person subject to this chapter who, with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign nation, communicates, delivers, or transmits, or attempts to communicate, deliver, or transmit, to any entity described in paragraph (2), either directly or indirectly, anything described in paragraph (3) shall be punished as a court-martial may direct, except that if the accused is found guilty of an offense that directly concerns (A) nuclear weaponry, military spacecraft or satellites, early warning systems, or other means of defense or retaliation against large scale attack, (B) war plans, (C) communications intelligence or cryptographic information, or (D) any other major weapons system or major element of defense strategy, the accused shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.
    (2) An entity referred to in paragraph (1) is—

    (A) a foreign government;
    (B) a faction or party or military or naval force within a foreign country, whether recognized or unrecognized by the United States; or

    (C) a representative, officer, agent, employee, subject, or citizen of such a government, faction, party, or force.

    (3) A thing referred to in paragraph (1) is a document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, note, instrument, appliance, or information relating to the national defense.

    (b)

    (1) No person may be sentenced by court-martial to suffer death for an offense under this section (article) unless—
    (A) the m bers of the court-martial unanimously find at least one of the aggravating factors set out in subsection (c); and
    (B) the members unanimously determine that any extenuating or mitigating circumstances are substantially outweighed by any aggravating circumstances, including the aggravating factors set out under subsection (c).

    (2) Findings under this subsection may be based on— (A) evidence introduced on the issue of guilt or innocence; (B) evidence introduced during the sentencing proceeding; or

    (C) all such evidence. (3) The accused shall be given broad latitude to present matters in extenuation and mitigation.
    (c) A sentence of death may be adjudged by a court-martial for an offense under this section (article) only if the members unanimously find, beyond a reasonable doubt, one or more of the following aggravating factors:

    (1) The accused has been convicted of another offense involving espionage or treason for which either a sentence of death or imprisonment for life was authorized by statute.
    (2) In the commission of the offense, the accused knowingly created a grave risk of substantial damage to the national security.

    (3) In the commission of the offense, the accused knowingly created a grave risk of death to another person.

    (4) Any other factor that may be prescribed by the President by regulations under section 836 of this title (Article 36).”

  9. #49
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    Re: Judge refuses to drop charges in Manning case

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun View Post
    Agreed. A traitorous act is a traitorous act regardless of the motive.

    UCMJ Article 106a—Espionage
    (1) Any person subject to this chapter who, with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign nation, communicates, delivers, or transmits, or attempts to communicate, deliver, or transmit, to any entity described in paragraph (2), either directly or indirectly, anything described in paragraph (3) shall be punished as a court-martial may direct, except that if the accused is found guilty of an offense that directly concerns (A) nuclear weaponry, military spacecraft or satellites, early warning systems, or other means of defense or retaliation against large scale attack, (B) war plans, (C) communications intelligence or cryptographic information, or (D) any other major weapons system or major element of defense strategy, the accused shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.
    (2) An entity referred to in paragraph (1) is—

    (A) a foreign government;
    (B) a faction or party or military or naval force within a foreign country, whether recognized or unrecognized by the United States; or

    (C) a representative, officer, agent, employee, subject, or citizen of such a government, faction, party, or force.


    (3) A thing referred to in paragraph (1) is a document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, note, instrument, appliance, or information relating to the national defense.

    (b)

    (1) No person may be sentenced by court-martial to suffer death for an offense under this section (article) unless—
    (A) the m bers of the court-martial unanimously find at least one of the aggravating factors set out in subsection (c); and
    (B) the members unanimously determine that any extenuating or mitigating circumstances are substantially outweighed by any aggravating circumstances, including the aggravating factors set out under subsection (c).

    (2) Findings under this subsection may be based on— (A) evidence introduced on the issue of guilt or innocence; (B) evidence introduced during the sentencing proceeding; or

    (C) all such evidence. (3) The accused shall be given broad latitude to present matters in extenuation and mitigation.
    (c) A sentence of death may be adjudged by a court-martial for an offense under this section (article) only if the members unanimously find, beyond a reasonable doubt, one or more of the following aggravating factors:

    (1) The accused has been convicted of another offense involving espionage or treason for which either a sentence of death or imprisonment for life was authorized by statute.
    (2) In the commission of the offense, the accused knowingly created a grave risk of substantial damage to the national security.

    (3) In the commission of the offense, the accused knowingly created a grave risk of death to another person.

    (4) Any other factor that may be prescribed by the President by regulations under section 836 of this title (Article 36).”
    Under which of those would WikiLeaks fall?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  10. #50
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    Re: Judge refuses to drop charges in Manning case

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Under which of those would WikiLeaks fall?
    Paragraph 1.B, C and D. Without knowing exactly what Manning released I cannot tell for sure, but from has been said about it, if true, would qualify under all of those.

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