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Eric Holder grilled over Fast and Furious in Congress

from your evasion of the question it appears your hypocrisy has been exposed
again, why is it so important for us to have monitored the weapons sold in mexico when they are the same kinds of weapons publicly traded within the USA
if you are opposed to the sale of those weapons in mexico then why are you not also opposed to the sale of those weapons in the states
your double standard is showing

Un, I asked a question and simply don't address any new ones from those who won't answer my original question. It's gettin painfully obvious you can't back up your original assertion. Sorry, try a different thread.
 
Un, I asked a question and simply don't address any new ones from those who won't answer my original question. It's gettin painfully obvious you can't back up your original assertion. Sorry, try a different thread.
you keep dodging what should be an easy question
why are the weapons that are sold in mexico very important for us to have monitored while those same types of weapons are traded routinely in the USA
explain that hypocrisy ... or being unable/unwilling to do so, it will be obvious that this is nothing more than a weak effort to criticize Obama for doing the same thing you did not criticize dubya for doing
 
you keep dodging what should be an easy question
why are the weapons that are sold in mexico very important for us to have monitored while those same types of weapons are traded routinely in the USA
explain that hypocrisy ... or being unable/unwilling to do so, it will be obvious that this is nothing more than a weak effort to criticize Obama for doing the same thing you did not criticize dubya for doing

Please link to murderous drug cartels in the U.S. using Fast & Furious guns or your case falls apart.

Answer or don't. i won't adress any new questions from you till you do.
 
While the liberals are diverting, doing the jig, side stepping and trying their darndest in this threat to change the subject and muddy the water.... the result really comes down to "Holder lied" and is himself trying to divert Congress. Issa knows this, and of course it's obvious that he's covering up his departments actions... so there's a few outcomes.


- Someone will fall on the sword for Holder & Obama's administration
- Holder will himself be thrown under the bus as the sacrifice to make this go away
- Delay delay delay until after the election
- Holder will be held in contempt successfully and perhaps impeachment proceedings start prior to November
- Nothing happens until after the election

I really cannot see the Administration or Holder providing anything, or admitting anything until after November. If they can find a patsy to fall on the sword and still retain deniability, in that this DoJ person went off the reservation on their own - great. If not, deny deny deny. If Congress can force the issue and corner Holder or bring to light even more information making Obama look bad, Holder is the lamb to the slaughter, and damage control needs to start by Axelrod & Co. Frankly, I think Issa may get Holder in contempt prior to November... but more likely either "deny deny deny" or "nothing happens" is most likely.
 
you keep dodging what should be an easy question
why are the weapons that are sold in mexico very important for us to have monitored while those same types of weapons are traded routinely in the USA
explain that hypocrisy ... or being unable/unwilling to do so, it will be obvious that this is nothing more than a weak effort to criticize Obama for doing the same thing you did not criticize dubya for doing

Gun trafficking is illegal in the U.S., yet the Justice Dept. sat on their hands and watched traffickers buy thousands of guns here and take them illegally across the border.
 
Gun trafficking is illegal in the U.S., yet the Justice Dept. sat on their hands and watched traffickers buy thousands of guns here and take them illegally across the border.

It was a sting operation. LEO's are allowed to break the law in effort to enforce the law. It happens every single day in this country. The problem in this case, and in previous cases under Bush, was that the operations were poorly designed.
 
It was a sting operation. LEO's are allowed to break the law in effort to enforce the law. It happens every single day in this country. The problem in this case, and in previous cases under Bush, was that the operations were poorly designed.

On September 27, 2007, ATF agents saw the original suspects buying weapons at the same store and followed them toward the Mexican border. The ATF informed the Mexican government when the suspects successfully crossed the border, but Mexican law enforcement were unable to track them.[4][10]

Less than two weeks later, on October 6, William Newell, then ATF's special agent in charge of the Phoenix field division, shut down the operation at the behest of William Hoover, ATF's assistant director for the office of field operations.[27] No charges were filed. Newell, who was special agent in charge from June 2006 to May 2011, would later play a major role in Operation Fast and Furious.[4][24]

ATF gunwalking scandal | Ask.com Encyclopedia

Under the Bush administration it was shut down as soon as they knew they were losing track of the guns. if they did under the Obama administration please post a link.
 
It was a sting operation. LEO's are allowed to break the law in effort to enforce the law. It happens every single day in this country. The problem in this case, and in previous cases under Bush, was that the operations were poorly designed.

Wrong. Standard procedure was to wait for the guns to be handed off, then arrest both parties. This was not done and the guns were allowed to enter Mexico where they were lost. That's why agents in the ATF began complaining. Their supervisor, David Voth, did not allow them to arrest the traffickers or intervene when they were shipped to Mexico. He wrote in an email, "I will be damned if this case is going to suffer due to petty arguing, rumors, or other adolescent behavior. I don’t know what all the issues are but we are all adults, we are all professionals, and we have an exciting opportunity to use the biggest tool in our law enforcement tool box. If you don’t think this is fun you are in the wrong line of work – period!”

I don't think Brian Terry's family thinks it was a very "fun" idea.
 
Gun trafficking is illegal in the U.S., yet the Justice Dept. sat on their hands and watched traffickers buy thousands of guns here and take them illegally across the border.

but you have yet to explain to us why this concerns you so
why you are so invested in the monitoring of these weapons in mexico while you simultaneously want to turn a blind eye to the fact that these same types of weapons are publicly traded in the USA

no one is surprised that mexico does not monitor the weapons that originated in mexico which later wound up in the USA, and what portion of them were used in the commission of crime
you are whining about a non-issue

and if you want to point to the gun-walking strategy as evidence of ATF's ineptitude then you will be confronted with the reality that the strategy was conceived and implemented during the dicknbush regime

face it. you guys are whining but haven't a clue what you are actually whining about
 
but you have yet to explain to us why this concerns you so
why you are so invested in the monitoring of these weapons in mexico while you simultaneously want to turn a blind eye to the fact that these same types of weapons are publicly traded in the USA

no one is surprised that mexico does not monitor the weapons that originated in mexico which later wound up in the USA, and what portion of them were used in the commission of crime
you are whining about a non-issue

and if you want to point to the gun-walking strategy as evidence of ATF's ineptitude then you will be confronted with the reality that the strategy was conceived and implemented during the dicknbush regime

face it. you guys are whining but haven't a clue what you are actually whining about

Ahh, so your beef is that I and others are concerned that the U.S. government allowed/facilitated breaking of a foreign country's laws ???

Amazingly poor attempt to justify illegal actions.
 
Ahh, so your beef is that I and others are concerned that the U.S. government allowed/facilitated breaking of a foreign country's laws ???

Amazingly poor attempt to justify illegal actions.

so, then you are not concerned about holder's apparent misleading statements to congress
you are not actually concerned that assault weapons from the USA wound up being used on an American LEO
you are simply concerned about how we broke mexico's laws ... without offering any cites to show us how outraged the mexican government is about our country's (in)actions
got it
thanks for your clarification
 
Wrong. Standard procedure was to wait for the guns to be handed off, then arrest both parties. This was not done and the guns were allowed to enter Mexico where they were lost. That's why agents in the ATF began complaining. Their supervisor, David Voth, did not allow them to arrest the traffickers or intervene when they were shipped to Mexico. He wrote in an email, "I will be damned if this case is going to suffer due to petty arguing, rumors, or other adolescent behavior. I don’t know what all the issues are but we are all adults, we are all professionals, and we have an exciting opportunity to use the biggest tool in our law enforcement tool box. If you don’t think this is fun you are in the wrong line of work – period!”

I don't think Brian Terry's family thinks it was a very "fun" idea.

You haven't contradicted what I wrote. What they did was incompetent — not illegal. They were going after the bigger fish so they didn't want to arrest the low-level stooges who were sent out to pick up the guns. Unfortunately they had no realistic plan to track the guns.
 
so, then you are not concerned about holder's apparent misleading statements to congress
you are not actually concerned that assault weapons from the USA wound up being used on an American LEO
you are simply concerned about how we broke mexico's laws ... without offering any cites to show us how outraged the mexican government is about our country's (in)actions
got it
thanks for your clarification

So then you are not concerned with Watergate
you are not actually concerned with Iran-Contra
you are not concerned with Guantanamo Bay

All you are concerned about is that guns are being sold in the U.S.

Thanks for the clarification... see how silly your post looks now ??
 
By the way, it is ridiculously easy to confirm what the Mexican government thinks of Holder's folly:

“[The operation] is a grave violation of international rights,” Jorge Carlos Ramírez Marín, president of Mexico's lower house of Congress, said Tuesday. “What will happen if next time they’ll need to funnel in trained assassins, for example, or nuclear arms?”

Fellow congressman Humberto Trevino claims that an estimated 150 shooting injuries or deaths have been linked to guns that were allowed by US agents to proceed into Mexico.
Mexico lawmakers livid over US 'Operation Fast and Furious' - CSMonitor.com
 
You haven't contradicted what I wrote. What they did was incompetent — not illegal. They were going after the bigger fish so they didn't want to arrest the low-level stooges who were sent out to pick up the guns. Unfortunately they had no realistic plan to track the guns.

Where did I claim it was illegal. It didn't have to be illegal to be to the level that heads should roll.

But........it was illegal for Holder to blatantly lie under oath to Congress about it. It's always the coverup that gets people.
 
so, then you are not concerned about holder's apparent misleading statements to congress
you are not actually concerned that assault weapons from the USA wound up being used on an American LEO
you are simply concerned about how we broke mexico's laws ... without offering any cites to show us how outraged the mexican government is about our country's (in)actions
got it
thanks for your clarification

In fact Mexico WAS very upset with us ... For not doing enough to stop the flow of guns into their country!

Mexico's Calderon urges Obama, Congress to tighten gun laws - Washington Times
 
Where did I claim it was illegal..

Here:

Gun trafficking is illegal in the U.S., yet the Justice Dept. sat on their hands and watched traffickers buy thousands of guns here and take them illegally across the border.

---------
 
So then you are not concerned with Watergate
you are not actually concerned with Iran-Contra
you are not concerned with Guantanamo Bay

All you are concerned about is that guns are being sold in the U.S.

Thanks for the clarification... see how silly your post looks now ??
you did expose some significant silliness with that post; on that we agree
you also exposed that you have nowhere else to hide on this issue
your side's hypocrisy has been exposed
if you support assault weapons sales in the USA then why would you have basis to object to them in mexico
 
you did expose some significant silliness with that post; on that we agree
you also exposed that you have nowhere else to hide on this issue
your side's hypocrisy has been exposed
if you support assault weapons sales in the USA then why would you have basis to object to them in mexico

I'll be happy to discuss this with you when you decide to have an intelligent conversation, rather than the drivel you are unfortunately prone to produce.
 
It was a sting operation. LEO's are allowed to break the law in effort to enforce the law. It happens every single day in this country. The problem in this case, and in previous cases under Bush, was that the operations were poorly designed.

:bs

It's really stupid when you do it with firearms. Remember, people have gotten killed over this illegal atrocity the US government committed.

Not only did Holder and gang violate US law, they also violated international law knowing the firearms would be going across an international border without approval from the country in which they entered.
 
why are you not similarly alarmed that such weapons are publicly - and openly - exchanged within our own society
why is that OK, while similar weapon transactions in mexico are so egregious

What a trolling hack. This is probably the most inane and asinine post I've seen at DP. Get a clue; then come back and have an informed discussion.

Ever heard of the Bill of Rights? See Amendment #2.

The problem wasn't the weapons transaction in Mexico, it was the weapons that were sold illegally in the US that were knowingly, by the US government, being taken illegally into Mexico.
 
Μολὼν λαβέ;1060585202 said:
:bs

It's really stupid when you do it with firearms. Remember, people have gotten killed over this illegal atrocity the US government committed.

Not only did Holder and gang violate US law, they also violated international law knowing the firearms would be going across an international border without approval from the country in which they entered.

I have no doubt that the victims here would have been killed with or without operation fast and furious. Do you really think the cartels couldn't have gotten guns any other way? Recall that the operation was undertaken because the cartels had virtually unlimited access to to the US gun market. So let's stop pretending that the operation provided them something that they wouldn't have obtained very easily from another source.
 
While the liberals are diverting, doing the jig, side stepping and trying their darndest in this threat to change the subject and muddy the water.... the result really comes down to "Holder lied" and is himself trying to divert Congress. Issa knows this, and of course it's obvious that he's covering up his departments actions... so there's a few outcomes.


- Someone will fall on the sword for Holder & Obama's administration
- Holder will himself be thrown under the bus as the sacrifice to make this go away
- Delay delay delay until after the election
- Holder will be held in contempt successfully and perhaps impeachment proceedings start prior to November
- Nothing happens until after the election

I really cannot see the Administration or Holder providing anything, or admitting anything until after November. If they can find a patsy to fall on the sword and still retain deniability, in that this DoJ person went off the reservation on their own - great. If not, deny deny deny. If Congress can force the issue and corner Holder or bring to light even more information making Obama look bad, Holder is the lamb to the slaughter, and damage control needs to start by Axelrod & Co. Frankly, I think Issa may get Holder in contempt prior to November... but more likely either "deny deny deny" or "nothing happens" is most likely.


I vote for "- Someone will fall on the sword for Holder & Obama's administration
"


But your list was thorough.
 
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