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Thread: Eric Holder grilled over Fast and Furious in Congress

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    Re: Eric Holder grilled over Fast and Furious in Congress

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Gun trafficking is illegal in the U.S., yet the Justice Dept. sat on their hands and watched traffickers buy thousands of guns here and take them illegally across the border.
    It was a sting operation. LEO's are allowed to break the law in effort to enforce the law. It happens every single day in this country. The problem in this case, and in previous cases under Bush, was that the operations were poorly designed.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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    Re: Eric Holder grilled over Fast and Furious in Congress

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    It was a sting operation. LEO's are allowed to break the law in effort to enforce the law. It happens every single day in this country. The problem in this case, and in previous cases under Bush, was that the operations were poorly designed.
    On September 27, 2007, ATF agents saw the original suspects buying weapons at the same store and followed them toward the Mexican border. The ATF informed the Mexican government when the suspects successfully crossed the border, but Mexican law enforcement were unable to track them.[4][10]

    Less than two weeks later, on October 6, William Newell, then ATF's special agent in charge of the Phoenix field division, shut down the operation at the behest of William Hoover, ATF's assistant director for the office of field operations.[27] No charges were filed. Newell, who was special agent in charge from June 2006 to May 2011, would later play a major role in Operation Fast and Furious.[4][24]

    ATF gunwalking scandal | Ask.com Encyclopedia
    Under the Bush administration it was shut down as soon as they knew they were losing track of the guns. if they did under the Obama administration please post a link.
    "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

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    Re: Eric Holder grilled over Fast and Furious in Congress

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    It was a sting operation. LEO's are allowed to break the law in effort to enforce the law. It happens every single day in this country. The problem in this case, and in previous cases under Bush, was that the operations were poorly designed.
    Wrong. Standard procedure was to wait for the guns to be handed off, then arrest both parties. This was not done and the guns were allowed to enter Mexico where they were lost. That's why agents in the ATF began complaining. Their supervisor, David Voth, did not allow them to arrest the traffickers or intervene when they were shipped to Mexico. He wrote in an email, "I will be damned if this case is going to suffer due to petty arguing, rumors, or other adolescent behavior. I don’t know what all the issues are but we are all adults, we are all professionals, and we have an exciting opportunity to use the biggest tool in our law enforcement tool box. If you don’t think this is fun you are in the wrong line of work – period!”

    I don't think Brian Terry's family thinks it was a very "fun" idea.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





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    Re: Eric Holder grilled over Fast and Furious in Congress

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Gun trafficking is illegal in the U.S., yet the Justice Dept. sat on their hands and watched traffickers buy thousands of guns here and take them illegally across the border.
    but you have yet to explain to us why this concerns you so
    why you are so invested in the monitoring of these weapons in mexico while you simultaneously want to turn a blind eye to the fact that these same types of weapons are publicly traded in the USA

    no one is surprised that mexico does not monitor the weapons that originated in mexico which later wound up in the USA, and what portion of them were used in the commission of crime
    you are whining about a non-issue

    and if you want to point to the gun-walking strategy as evidence of ATF's ineptitude then you will be confronted with the reality that the strategy was conceived and implemented during the dicknbush regime

    face it. you guys are whining but haven't a clue what you are actually whining about
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Eric Holder grilled over Fast and Furious in Congress

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    but you have yet to explain to us why this concerns you so
    why you are so invested in the monitoring of these weapons in mexico while you simultaneously want to turn a blind eye to the fact that these same types of weapons are publicly traded in the USA

    no one is surprised that mexico does not monitor the weapons that originated in mexico which later wound up in the USA, and what portion of them were used in the commission of crime
    you are whining about a non-issue

    and if you want to point to the gun-walking strategy as evidence of ATF's ineptitude then you will be confronted with the reality that the strategy was conceived and implemented during the dicknbush regime

    face it. you guys are whining but haven't a clue what you are actually whining about
    Ahh, so your beef is that I and others are concerned that the U.S. government allowed/facilitated breaking of a foreign country's laws ???

    Amazingly poor attempt to justify illegal actions.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





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    Re: Eric Holder grilled over Fast and Furious in Congress

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post
    Please link to murderous drug cartels in the U.S. using Fast & Furious guns or your case falls apart.
    Still waiting.
    "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

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    Re: Eric Holder grilled over Fast and Furious in Congress

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Ahh, so your beef is that I and others are concerned that the U.S. government allowed/facilitated breaking of a foreign country's laws ???

    Amazingly poor attempt to justify illegal actions.
    so, then you are not concerned about holder's apparent misleading statements to congress
    you are not actually concerned that assault weapons from the USA wound up being used on an American LEO
    you are simply concerned about how we broke mexico's laws ... without offering any cites to show us how outraged the mexican government is about our country's (in)actions
    got it
    thanks for your clarification
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Eric Holder grilled over Fast and Furious in Congress

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Wrong. Standard procedure was to wait for the guns to be handed off, then arrest both parties. This was not done and the guns were allowed to enter Mexico where they were lost. That's why agents in the ATF began complaining. Their supervisor, David Voth, did not allow them to arrest the traffickers or intervene when they were shipped to Mexico. He wrote in an email, "I will be damned if this case is going to suffer due to petty arguing, rumors, or other adolescent behavior. I don’t know what all the issues are but we are all adults, we are all professionals, and we have an exciting opportunity to use the biggest tool in our law enforcement tool box. If you don’t think this is fun you are in the wrong line of work – period!”

    I don't think Brian Terry's family thinks it was a very "fun" idea.
    You haven't contradicted what I wrote. What they did was incompetent — not illegal. They were going after the bigger fish so they didn't want to arrest the low-level stooges who were sent out to pick up the guns. Unfortunately they had no realistic plan to track the guns.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Eric Holder grilled over Fast and Furious in Congress

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    so, then you are not concerned about holder's apparent misleading statements to congress
    you are not actually concerned that assault weapons from the USA wound up being used on an American LEO
    you are simply concerned about how we broke mexico's laws ... without offering any cites to show us how outraged the mexican government is about our country's (in)actions
    got it
    thanks for your clarification
    So then you are not concerned with Watergate
    you are not actually concerned with Iran-Contra
    you are not concerned with Guantanamo Bay

    All you are concerned about is that guns are being sold in the U.S.

    Thanks for the clarification... see how silly your post looks now ??

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





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    Re: Eric Holder grilled over Fast and Furious in Congress

    By the way, it is ridiculously easy to confirm what the Mexican government thinks of Holder's folly:

    “[The operation] is a grave violation of international rights,” Jorge Carlos Ramírez Marín, president of Mexico's lower house of Congress, said Tuesday. “What will happen if next time they’ll need to funnel in trained assassins, for example, or nuclear arms?”

    Fellow congressman Humberto Trevino claims that an estimated 150 shooting injuries or deaths have been linked to guns that were allowed by US agents to proceed into Mexico.
    Mexico lawmakers livid over US 'Operation Fast and Furious' - CSMonitor.com

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





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