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Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

mac said:
Kinda like some would love to benefit from education, but not pay for it.
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Kind of. I see quite a few who don't want educatin paid for. But I'm likely looking ina different direction than you are. ;)
 
Prof. Peabody said:
WTF are you talking about? I was forced to pay for it. While I certainly don't mind giving my fair share for collective bargaining, I don't agree with their political donation strategy. Please tell me why I can't opt out of that?
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Yes, you want only employers to be able to donate. Keeping the advantage in their court. It's fair when they do it, but not when workers do it. I understand that completely. The thing is laws effect employees, and the money employers have pumpted in has hurt workers and unions. Unions can't really keep up. But, you would prefer the advantage be even larger. I'm sure you've internalized some pro-managment rationale for this?
 
Kal'Stang said:
And does everyone ask for what you bargain for? Or would they prefer to bargain on their own? I know I do. I would imagine that I'm not the only one.

See what you just said here is a copout. "oh they get they the benefits we bargain for too, therefore they should pay!". Sorry but I know lots of people that are not a part of a union and do not get ANY of the benefits that union members do. I live in a right to work state. Lots of unions in this state still...yet the only ones that get the benefits from the unions bargaining are union members. Everyone else bargains for their own benefits. They may or may not get them. Just depends on how hard they work for it.

Also how would the "propaganda" work against those that are in a union? They know the benefits they recieve from it. Yet many people that are/were in a union are dropping out of them...why?
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No response to this Boo?
 
Kal'Stang said:
No response to this Boo?
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And does everyone ask for what you bargain for? Or would they prefer to bargain on their own? I know I do. I would imagine that I'm not the only one.
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Obviously you individually have far less bargaining power than everyone bargaining collectively.
 
AdamT said:
Obviously you individually have far less bargaining power than everyone bargaining collectively.
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This is subjective. But even if what you say is true...so what? At least I am making it on my own via my own abilities and I am not dependent on someone else. I value independence far more than dependence.
 
Kal'Stang said:
No response to this Boo?
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Didn't see it. Sorry.

Actually, they want more. We don't have any real power, as we are not a union. Some want a union because schools with unions are doing much better than we are. We've refrained hoping to work with administration. the result has been that workers have lsot jobs, lost benefits, while adminsitration ahs gotten bonuses. This doesn't sit well. But, when called up on to act, too many do nothing. Some think it is because we don't have a union, andf therefore risk being fired.

Most places where there is a union, everyone gets the benefits of the union. My wife worked at a hopsital some years ago, and when she crossed a doctor (actually saving a life by doing so), a union representive was threr even though she wasn't a member. They mad sure her rights in the negotiated contract were followed. I don;t know if you understand how difficult it is for a nurse to act against a doctor, as being right doesn't matter at all. But without that help, she'd have not done as well as she did.

So while I can't speak for all unions everywhere, I do come from a family of unions members across the country, and I hear this from them often. others benefit from their efforts without paying.

As for the propaganda, well listen to it. Most people manage to do their jobs without a lot of actual contact with problems. When they watch TV and see the constant attacks, it is only natural that people who tend to lean conservative to start with would buy into much of it. This is not to say unions are perfect. They are not. But the propaganda is a distorted view that actually harms workers when they buy into it.
 
Dickieboy said:
Thank you for your consistently insightful and valuable contribution to the debate [...]
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It's not my fault that your argument sucked. Don't shoot the messenger :shrug:

You did get the correlation/causation thing right (regarding AdamT's chart). But you soiled that one success with a string of unrelated failures (as I pointed out in my previous post, which you seem to have problems understanding, which again is not my fault, nor critical to my criticisms (that you understand them)).
 
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Karl said:
It's not my fault that your argument sucked. Don't shoot the messenger :shrug:

You did get the correlation/causation thing right (regarding AdamT's chart). But you soiled that one success with a string of unrelated failures (as I pointed out in my previous post, which you seem to have problems understanding, which again is not my fault, nor critical to my criticisms (that you understand them)).
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Thanks...again for your consistency.
 
Boo Radley said:
Kind of. I see quite a few who don't want educatin paid for. But I'm likely looking ina different direction than you are. ;)
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Oh, what direction is that? Down your nose?
 
Kal'Stang said:
This is subjective. But even if what you say is true...so what? At least I am making it on my own via my own abilities and I am not dependent on someone else. I value independence far more than dependence.
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No, it isn't subjective. The more emloyees there are in the bargaining unit the more power they have. If you go out on strike yourself you will just get fired. But I respect your desire to be independent. Personally I think this country has a real need for unions, but the unions we have mostly suck donkey dicks.
 
Boo Radley said:
Yes, you want only employers to be able to donate. Keeping the advantage in their court. It's fair when they do it, but not when workers do it. I understand that completely. The thing is laws effect employees, and the money employers have pumpted in has hurt workers and unions. Unions can't really keep up. But, you would prefer the advantage be even larger. I'm sure you've internalized some pro-managment rationale for this?
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My dues should be for collective bargaining isn't that what Unions are for? I am not in favor of Obama, yet my money that I HAVE to pay will be used to help get him elected against my will? Employers can donate to who ever they want, they aren't taking money directly from my paycheck to do so. I'm surprised you can't see the difference. I'm sure you've internalized some pro-labor rationale for this.
 
AdamT said:
No, it isn't subjective. The more emloyees there are in the bargaining unit the more power they have. If you go out on strike yourself you will just get fired. But I respect your desire to be independent. Personally I think this country has a real need for unions, but the unions we have mostly suck donkey dicks.
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The problem is what the unions do with the power they have... apparently many union members don't see the advantages of having a union any longer. The tactics they use may have worked in the 1950's and 1960's in their heyday, not so much any more. Certain areas do need unions... most do not. Business has by and large found ways to work with their employees without unions. Those sectors that have not, will still need unions until those sectors like the rest of the U.S., see their employees not as chattel but as their lifeline to growing and expanding their business.
 
Prof. Peabody said:
My dues should be for collective bargaining isn't that what Unions are for? I am not in favor of Obama, yet my money that I HAVE to pay will be used to help get him elected against my will? Employers can donate to who ever they want, they aren't taking money directly from my paycheck to do so. I'm surprised you can't see the difference. I'm sure you've internalized some pro-labor rationale for this.
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If you work for Acme Corp. and they donate money to Obama -- money that would otherwise go to salary and benefits, then you would be in exactly the same situation.
 
AdamT said:
If you work for Acme Corp. and they donate money to Obama -- money that would otherwise go to salary and benefits, then you would be in exactly the same situation.
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So they are directly taking it out of my paycheck? If they want to take a portion of their profit and give it away, that's their prerogative and yours. Unions take money directly out of my paycheck and give it to people I don't support. If your argument is Acme Corp. would give this money to me if they didn't donate it instead, you'll need to prove that.
 
Ockham said:
The problem is what the unions do with the power they have... apparently many union members don't see the advantages of having a union any longer. The tactics they use may have worked in the 1950's and 1960's in their heyday, not so much any more. Certain areas do need unions... most do not. Business has by and large found ways to work with their employees without unions. Those sectors that have not, will still need unions until those sectors like the rest of the U.S., see their employees not as chattel but as their lifeline to growing and expanding their business.
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I agree. The unions need to perform a useful function for employees AND employers, as they do in many other countries. They need to recognize that the health of the company is important to the long-term benefit of its employees.

At the same time, I think that the death of the labor movement has a lot to do with the ever growing disparity between blue collar and white collar pay.
 
Ockham said:
The problem is what the unions do with the power they have... apparently many union members don't see the advantages of having a union any longer. [...]
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Since right wing laws say that you can get union benefits and union wages without paying union dues, of course there is no advantage of having a union any longer. You can get it for free.

Until all the unions are gone, of course, then the capitalists will lick their chops and drop the hammer on the backs of the workers; at which point there will be no going back, because the right wing will have, by then, legislated unions powerless (as Scott Walker has effectively done in Wisconsin).
 
Karl said:
...legislated unions powerless (as Scott Walker has effectively done in Wisconsin).
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And if that is what the voters voted for, twice in this instance, then that was the right thing to do, no?
 
AdamT said:
If you work for Acme Corp. and they donate money to Obama -- money that would otherwise go to salary and benefits, then you would be in exactly the same situation.
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However, that money belongs to Acme Corp. and doesn't come out of Prof's paycheck. Therein lies the difference.
 
Ockham said:
The problem is what the unions do with the power they have... apparently many union members don't see the advantages of having a union any longer. The tactics they use may have worked in the 1950's and 1960's in their heyday, not so much any more. Certain areas do need unions... most do not. Business has by and large found ways to work with their employees without unions. Those sectors that have not, will still need unions until those sectors like the rest of the U.S., see their employees not as chattel but as their lifeline to growing and expanding their business.
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I believe that unions have outlived their usefulness, entirely. What with the ever sacred government regulations that protect workers, unions are nothing more than another special interest group with too much power and too much money.
 
apdst said:
However, that money belongs to Acme Corp. and doesn't come out of Prof's paycheck. Therein lies the difference.
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It comes out of his paycheck just as surely as union dues — just not as directly.
 
Prof. Peabody said:
My dues should be for collective bargaining isn't that what Unions are for? I am not in favor of Obama, yet my money that I HAVE to pay will be used to help get him elected against my will? Employers can donate to who ever they want, they aren't taking money directly from my paycheck to do so. I'm surprised you can't see the difference. I'm sure you've internalized some pro-labor rationale for this.
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Just like with management, laws passed matter. If it is fair and fine for management, why would it not be fair and fine for labor?
 
AdamT said:
It comes out of his paycheck just as surely as union dues — just not as directly.
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No, it doesn't come out of his paycheck at all, it comes from the company's money. But even if you think it does, Peabody did clarify "directly out of my paycheck".
 
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AdamT said:
It comes out of his paycheck just as surely as union dues — just not as directly.
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No it doesn't. The two are no where close to being the same. Don't even try it, Boo. Union dues are nothing more than a tax. If unions were so awesome, they would do all their wonderful work for free.
 
apdst said:
No it doesn't. The two are no where close to being the same. Don't even try it, Boo. Union dues are nothing more than a tax. If unions were so awesome, they would do all their wonderful work for free.
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Sorry, Bubba, but the fact is that campaign contributions come off the company's bottom line, and the bottom line is what determines how much the company can pay its employees.
 
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