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Thread: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not necessarily. There are other reasons people work at private schools, and wouldn't want to work at a public school. It is easier to look good when you have good students and don't have to deal with the problems of the general population. And you can have that benefit and not face the lack of respect public school teachers face.
    I'm so tired of this naive talking point. Many bad students transfer from public schools to private every year and many of them experience an drastic improvement in their grades in private schools. This is WHY this retarded talking point exists to begin with to excuse bad public schools.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Most places are eliminating tenure, but that isn't a cure all. It's effect will be minimal, but no real objection from me. However, even tenured teachers can lose their job. Most places, union or not, have procedures in which the employer has to go through to fire people. This is largely fair.
    Sure, public school (unionized) teachers can be fired, but only for doing things like sleeping with students or something of equal or worse proportions, or by being laid off (and then they lay off by lowest seniority, not by performance). Public school teachers never get fired on the basis of poor performance, as should happen.

    At my job, if I'm not making and/or saving my company more money than what they're paying me, AKA performing well, I lose my job. The same should be true of teachers (of course the criteria of performing well for them would be student test scores, grades, graduation rate, etc., rather than bringing in or saving money for their company), regardless of tenure.
    Last edited by The Man; 06-09-12 at 04:46 PM.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    Sure, public school (unionized) teachers can be fired, but only for doing things like sleeping with students or something of equal or worse proportions, or by being laid off (and then they lay off by lowest seniority, not by performance). Public school teachers never get fired on the basis of poor performance, as should happen.

    At my job, if I'm not making and/or saving my company more money than what they're paying me, AKA performing well, I lose my job. The same should be true of teachers (of course the criteria of performing well for them would be student test scores, grades, graduation rate, etc., rather than bringing in or saving money for their company), regardless of tenure.
    That's really not true. There is a procedure everywhere. Some are more difficult than others, but there is a procedure to fire for justifiable reasons, including incompetence.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I'm so tired of this naive talking point. Many bad students transfer from public schools to private every year and many of them experience an drastic improvement in their grades in private schools. This is WHY this retarded talking point exists to begin with to excuse bad public schools.
    Actually, no. Yes some do, in some places, but the average includes very selective schools. Overall, this gives them an advantage in national statistics. Where the private schools have students that reflect the same make up as public schools, they don't look as good. But even then, they can get rid of a problem student. Can and do.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That's really not true. There is a procedure everywhere. Some are more difficult than others, but there is a procedure to fire for justifiable reasons, including incompetence.
    Just saying, I've seen plenty of incompetent teachers, none of which have ever been fired for incompetence. I have seen plenty of great teachers fired (laid off), while incompetent teachers keep their job simply because they have more seniority. Teachers unions (or ANY labor unions) do not make any sense at all in that regard. When it comes to lay offs, the best employees should keep their jobs. Seniority should not be a factor.
    Last edited by The Man; 06-09-12 at 06:33 PM.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    Just saying, I've seen plenty of incompetent teachers, none of which have ever been fired for incompetence. I have seen plenty of great teachers fired (laid off), while incompetent teachers keep their job simply because they have more seniority. Teachers unions (or ANY labor unions) do not make any sense at all in that regard. When it comes to lay offs, the best employees should keep their jobs. Seniority should not be a factor.
    I think that senority should be a factor. BUT a very small factor. If someone with 20 years of experiance in that company is a good worker and you have someone thats only worked for 2 years in that company but is just as good a worker as the person with 20 years then the person with 20 years experiance should be kept over that of the one with only 2 years. This should even apply if both people have a total of 20 years experiance but one has been with the company longer than the other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I think that senority should be a factor. BUT a very small factor. If someone with 20 years of experiance in that company is a good worker and you have someone thats only worked for 2 years in that company but is just as good a worker as the person with 20 years then the person with 20 years experiance should be kept over that of the one with only 2 years. This should even apply if both people have a total of 20 years experiance but one has been with the company longer than the other.
    I agree with that. I'm talking about when an employee who, for instance, has 20 years experience and is a not as good of a worker as an employee with 2 years experience, but in the case of a lay off keeps their job over the better employee simply because of seniority. That should not be how it works, but that's unions. Makes zero sense.
    Last edited by The Man; 06-09-12 at 07:19 PM.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    Just saying, I've seen plenty of incompetent teachers, none of which have ever been fired for incompetence. I have seen plenty of great teachers fired (laid off), while incompetent teachers keep their job simply because they have more seniority. Teachers unions (or ANY labor unions) do not make any sense at all in that regard. When it comes to lay offs, the best employees should keep their jobs. Seniority should not be a factor.
    There is really only a small number of incompetent teachers. And much of business, even without a union, do things based on seniority. Both however can make exceptions for what they consider exceptional. Such is rare for both however. YOu should also know most are average. It's the nature of nearly everything.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    As far as working conditions, there are already laws that dictate satisfactory working conditions and worker safety. There's no negotiations needed for that.

    And as far as raises only within the rate of inflation, what's wrong with that? I say to them: Welcome to reality. And overtime should never be guaranteed to begin with.
    Please reread my post. It was directed at Adam's false assertion that Walker ELIMINATED collective bargaining (agreeing with you). The working conditions, safety points you make are valid. Raises should be assessed based on merit…period! Overtime for hourly work should certainly be guaranteed else managers potentially will work fewer more rather than more enough. In the short term overtime is effective but studies have shown that persistent overtime causes ‘burnout’ and safety concerns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    Please reread my post. It was directed at Adam's false assertion that Walker ELIMINATED collective bargaining (agreeing with you). The working conditions, safety points you make are valid. Raises should be assessed based on merit…period! Overtime for hourly work should certainly be guaranteed else managers potentially will work fewer more rather than more enough. In the short term overtime is effective but studies have shown that persistent overtime causes ‘burnout’ and safety concerns.
    Overtime pay for overtime worked should be guaranteed, yes. I meant that availability of overtime hours should not be guaranteed. (I know people who depend on getting OT hours to make ends meet, and they're crazy for doing that). Sorry if I was unclear.

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