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Thread: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I just love how it is all the states fault but the unions hold no blame what so ever. I mean come on...union folk are all angels that would NEVER take advantage of anyone or any situation! ....Right?
    No, that would be the reverse of what so many of you are doing. I keep saying it takes two, and that both hold responsibility. Too many here focus only in one direction, excusing the the state as if they played no role.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Let me make sure I have this right - because they are not civilians, members of the military are not public employees? What, precisely, causes this distinction?
    What if I decide to quit the military, can I walk in say I quit and go home? This is but one difference. You have trouble seeing difference when you don't want to, when it doesn't help you make a false a argument.

    Except that businesses must provide a service that people want and are willing to pay for.
    Same with the satate actually. They are free to ask the people if we need police officers, firefighters or teachers. They can reduce force and be responsive to the needs of the people. And they can ask if they want to pay for these services, and the people can elect people who will or won't. NO ONE is held at gun point.

    That is incorrect. Public servants are precisely that - our servants.
    As in slaves? No. They work for us at a salary, free to quit anytime they please. Free not to work for what we offer. And the less you offer, the less quality you're likely to get, same as any other service.

    No - that's a crap cop-out designed to dodge the issue.
    No it is the issue. Two sit down to the table. States are not held at gun point. They can do what any business does and negotiate.


    While not familiar with the book or author you use, listen what is said. Old agreement. This does not rule out a new agreement. Again, you seek out anything that will remove blame from one side and place it all on the other. The entire premise is flawed. Again, there are two sides at the table.

    Yes. As in, leadership that is influenced by the Public Unions.
    And yet, other states have union, and their influence, and are not in trouble. Too bad you don't look at what doesn't support your bias.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Did Walker say no to the out-of-state Koch money?
    Funny how Barrett also recieved out of state funds and its also funny how many of you die hard union supporters are whining that Obama did not support Barrett.

    Thank you for pointing out that Walker's efforts were nothing more than a partisan ploy to cripple the Democrats.
    Both parties are guilty of this.This is what different parties are for.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    There ya go, folks... makes one wonder why the others expended so much effort denying it


    You didn't answer my question about this re-election of Walker.

    Do you believe the taxpayers of WI should give a better "pay and benefits" package to their civil servants than they themselves get?

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy the Kid View Post
    You didn't answer my question about this re-election of Walker.

    Do you believe the taxpayers of WI should give a better "pay and benefits" package to their civil servants than they themselves get?
    That begs a lot of questions. Do the tax payers all have the same pay and benefits package, and what should be the critieria for getting any package? And which package are we measuring them against?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That begs a lot of questions. Do the tax payers all have the same pay and benefits package, and what should be the critieria for getting any package? And which package are we measuring them against?
    How about this for starters: The average public school teacher should receive the average pay and benefits of the the average private school teacher. (Where I live, public school teachers get paid many times over what private school teachers get paid, both in salary and benefits, yet private schools perform many times better than public schools, hmmmm?) As for elected officials, I think they should be paid the average salary of their constituents (something that I don't think many would argue against).
    Last edited by The Man; 06-09-12 at 02:38 PM.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    How about this for starters: The average public school teacher should receive the average pay and benefits of the the average private school teacher. As for elected officials, I don't think any of them should receive any pay or benefits for their elected position duties, or minimal at best (something that I don't think many would argue against).
    Which private schools. Top private schools pay pretty well. Lower ones not worth a crap. However, these figures are hard to come by.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Which private schools. Top private schools pay pretty well. Lower ones not worth a crap. However, these figures are hard to come by.
    Where I live (which we do have good/above average public schooling), public school teachers in even the worst public schools get paid better, and have better benefits than teachers in the best of private schools, and the private schools have better performance (and no teachers unions).

    One thing that I've always been a proponent of is eliminating tenure for teachers in unions. That would incentivize them to perform better, rather than just rely on their seniority for job security.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That begs a lot of questions. Do the tax payers all have the same pay and benefits package, and what should be the critieria for getting any package? And which package are we measuring them against?
    The criteria is simple. What is the minimum required salary/benefits to attract well qualified applicants? Compute that and add perhaps 5% and go from there. You do not need to compete with ALL private schools, only those near you. The insane Idea that a federal gov't position must offer pay suitable to NYC or DC, in an office in TN or MS, makes no sense at all. Public education has FAR more managers and support personnel per student/teacher than private schools as well. Many ignore that more than half of public education labor costs are not for classsroom teachers, while that is not so for private schools.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    Again, Walker DID NOT eliminate collective bargaining. Show us evidence that he did.
    Of course he did! WTF do you think this whole thing is about?

    Wis. governor signs bill to curb union rights - politics - More politics - msnbc.com

    And yes, Wisconsin balanced its budget before Walker (by raising taxes), he is addressing future budget concerns before they become a crisis. Walker is not kicking the can down the road like other politicians, which is refreshing.
    Obviously Wisconsin did not raise taxes every year before Walker. What he did is take advantage of the temporary problem that every state faced as a result of the Great Recession in order to permanently eliminate public sector collective bargaining rights and effectively kill the public sector unions. This has more to do with politics (eliminating a major Democratic funding source) than it does with budget concerns.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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