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Thread: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    A union is a collective voice, formalized. What makes someone second class is when they can't do what others do. When you say one group can form a union, and another group can't, you are regulating that group to second class status.

    Try following the argument.
    Except that no one is telling anyone, not even public employee's, that they cannot form a union.
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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Except that no one is telling anyone, not even public employee's, that they cannot form a union.
    I try hard to keep in the context of the discussion. I entered when it was stated private sector unions were OK, but public weren't. If they are not be made not OK, then someone has to say they cannot form them.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    MAybe, Maybe not. But this is the nature of negotiations. Works best when both sides participate.
    Who do public unions negotiate with? People want to be part of a public union then all pay and benefits should put to a vote of the electorate not a politician that is bought by campaign contributions.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Oh, this is the be silly approach used when you can't address the actual points. I'm well aware of the tactics. However, as one who supports more to the solider, by all means, unionize.
    You know, there is a word for when the military decides to make it's own decisions and influence control over governance. That word is "junta".

    But we're not talking about themilitary.
    sure we are - or are you arguing that members of the military are not public employees?

    We're talking about civilians who do a job, like any other employee
    no, not "like any other employee", as the government is not "any other employer". The nature of representative government is inimical to the unionization of it's workforce, as Samuel Gompers and FDR well understood.

    I know that some don't think comparisons should be between things that are actually alike, as that wouldn't work as well for the false point they try to make. But, I insist they must actually be alike.

    There has been no removal of soverity from the public.
    that is incorrect. When any part of government is controlled by factions of the government, the power of the populace to have its will reflected instead is reduced in direct proportion.

    They can vote for any candidate who runs. They can made negotiating priority in the candidate they want. As I noted earlier, most states handle this rather well.
    Correct. Most states handle this rather well through the expedient of limiting their public sector unions. The ones that do not do so (Illinois, California) are doing rather badly.
    Last edited by cpwill; 06-08-12 at 11:50 PM.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    sure we are - or are you arguing that members of the military are not public employees?
    They are not civilian employees. No, they are not.

    no, not "like any other employee", as the government is not "any other employer". The nature of representative government is inimical to the unionization of it's workforce, as Samuel Gompers and FDR well understood.
    Actually, the government is a lot like every other employer. Police provide a service. Firefighters provide a service. Teachers provide a service and they are paid for doing that service.

    that is incorrect. When any part of government is controlled by factions of the government, the power of the populace to have its will reflected instead is reduced in direct proportion.
    No, I am correct. There has bene no removal of soverity from the public. They are just as free to vote as they ahve ever been.



    Correct. Most states handle this rather well through the expedient of limiting their public sector unions. The ones that do not do so (Illinois, California) are doing rather badly.
    NO, they negotiate better. The few states that did a poor job do not reflect unions, but the poor leadership involved by the state.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    I've spent some time in the third world and often, if it is something of a democracy, the most powerful people are the union leaders. They can shut down the country tomorrow, but the President can't. Democratically elected leaders come and go but the unions stay right where they are and are a law unto themselves.

    The people of Wisconsin voted wisely, despite all the Union propaganda, and it's a very good thing that people who are forced to pay their wages finally curbed their powers.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    They are not civilian employees. No, they are not.
    Let me make sure I have this right - because they are not civilians, members of the military are not public employees? What, precisely, causes this distinction?

    Actually, the government is a lot like every other employer. Police provide a service. Firefighters provide a service. Teachers provide a service and they are paid for doing that service.
    Except that businesses must provide a service that people want and are willing to pay for. They must also run a profit, and they are also subject to competition. This is not broadly true of government, which changes the incentive structures involved. Unions in the private sector have natural limits placed on them by the competition of the market - if they sluice off too much or provide too poor a service, the host dies. Unions in the public sector have no such natural limits - since the government is not required to provide quality services nor to run a profit in order to survive, their abuse is not curbed by these boundaries, but rather only by the threat of the ruin of the states' fisc, to the harm of all citizens.

    No, I am correct. There has bene no removal of soverity from the public. They are just as free to vote as they ahve ever been.
    That is incorrect. Public servants are precisely that - our servants. They work for us. They are not our boss, and this government belongs to us not them. When sectors of the government become interest groups, they are able to control that portion of the government to their own benefit rather than that of the citizenry. Government seeks to be For The People and becomes For The Government.

    NO, they negotiate better
    No - that's a crap cop-out designed to dodge the issue. You accuse local and state governments who are effectively controlled by unions as simply being "poor negotiators". They are excellent negotiators - they simply are not negotiating on behalf of the taxpayers and citizens, but rather on behalf of their political constituency, which is the union sitting across the table from them. Remember when John Corzine told a crowdfull of unionized public employees that he was going to "fight for a fair contract" for them? Who was he planning on fighting? He was the guy at the other end of the negotiating table.

    States are more successful when they limit the power and reach of public sector unions. It limits the ability of the unions to prey on the State Fisc, and makes it easier for the state to be more flexible and adaptive. That's why localities in Wisconsin who aren't held up by local contract are doing so much better right now than those that aren't.

    Variations Within Wisconsin
    ...The budget repair law experience has not been uniform across the state of Wisconsin. Some jurisdictions that are not encumbered by legacy labor contracts were able to achieve significant savings right away due to the budget repair law, and were not forced to make sharp reductions in employment—some, such as the City of Milwaukee, were even able to expand public services.

    Milwaukee lost $14 million in annual aid payments from the state, but found $30 million in employee benefits savings, of which $20 million was made possible by the budget repair law. These savings came mostly from changes to health benefits: partly requiring employees to pay a larger share of their insurance premiums, and partly switching to more economical plans. This is an example of what Wisconsinites can expect to see in cities and towns across their state in the next few years.

    But other jurisdictions that must honor existing contracts have had very different experiences. Take, for example, the Milwaukee Public Schools. The district lost $82 million in state aid. But it was not able to realize any health care or pension savings with unionized employees, because it entered into a four-year employee contract at the end of 2010. As a result, the district laid off 119 teachers and over 100 other employees.

    This situation is difficult, but temporary. There will be significant labor savings available to the Milwaukee Public Schools starting in 2014 when existing contracts expire. Employees will make larger pension and health contributions, and the district will have a free hand to modify health benefits.

    Those savings, when realized, should be substantial. A recent study found that even simply moving MPS employees into the same health plan used by state employees would save $64 million per year, enough to nearly wipe out the loss of state aid.[3]

    Over the next three years, municipal governments will begin taking advantage of labor reforms, and we can expect their ability to maintain or expand headcount to improve. Over time, the City of Milwaukee experience will move from unusually fortunate to typical—much as we’ve seen with how Indiana governments have weathered the recession...
    In his book, Mitch Daniels went to lengths to describe the impact of reducing the power of the public sector unions on the ability of his state government to provide good governance:

    ...In Indiana our actions were only secondarily about finances. It is true that the freedom to restructure departments, consolidate functions, and so on saved Hoosier taxpayers tons of money. But the principal motive, and equally important gains, came in the transformation of state services. There simply was no way we could have revolutionized our Bureau of Motor Vehicles (more on this later), our state parks, our prison system, or so many other services if we had been hogtied by the old union agreement.

    One of the most important changes this new freedom allowed involved the protection of children, one of the few literally life-and-death duties state government has, and one that Indiana was failing miserably at when my administration entered office. By almost every measure, Indiana had one of the worst child welfare systems in the country. Rates of child fatality and abuse in the system were shockingly high, and the average caseworker was overwhelmed with twice as many cases as the national average. There was tremendously high turnover among caseworkers, and incoming workers were rarely trained properly. At the same time, we had one of the poorest records anywhere of collecting child support for single parents. Only one of every two dollars in support ordered by a court was ever delivered to a single mom (or, occasionally, dad) in Indiana. …

    Six years later our child welfare system was winning national awards from private evaluators, such as the Annie E. Casey Foundation, and from the same federal Department of Health and Human Services that was preparing to penalize the state for maintaining an atrocious system before we took office. Today, 60 percent of single parents who are owed child support in the state receive it. That’s a significant improvement—although it is not nearly enough, so I continually press for more progress.

    Fixing the department required making thousands of organizational, process, and personnel changes. Hundreds of workers either were reassigned or, in some cases, dismissed for poor performance. The agency of 2011 looks totally different, and operates in a totally different way from its predecessor. If every one of these steps had required union consultation or signoff, as the old agreement provided, we would still be trying to take some of the earliest actions....

    The few states that did a poor job do not reflect unions, but the poor leadership involved by the state.
    Yes. As in, leadership that is influenced by the Public Unions.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    NO, they negotiate better. The few states that did a poor job do not reflect unions, but the poor leadership involved by the state.
    I just love how it is all the states fault but the unions hold no blame what so ever. I mean come on...union folk are all angels that would NEVER take advantage of anyone or any situation! ....Right?
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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    NO, they negotiate better. The few states that did a poor job do not reflect unions, but the poor leadership involved by the state.
    They negotiate better, now that's a good one. You have liberal legislators that love unions and of course the liberal legislators give the unions whatever they want in exchange for their vote. It's not negotiating at all, it's "I'll pat your back and you pat mine" or simply put, It's liberal legislators buying votes.
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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Unions are mandentory where they have a trade or shop locked in to a contract. When one takes a job ate a Union shop it's often about getting the union bene's & $ as the job itself. Having worked both over the years, a nonunion shop can be place of a$$ kissing & backstabbing, where the dominant personality often is favored over the good machinic. Also as a consruction weldor I appreciate the safe measures of OSHA which were innitiated by the workers (union).
    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    This is insane. Try this on. When you tell someone that if they take the job, they must join the union, that is to take away their liberty. When you then automatically deduct money from their paychecks to support a political party, you take away more liberty. When you then use the threat of force on a taxpayer to pay you more money, you are now taking away the liberty of that taxpayer.

    The people of Wisconsin spoke. They told the municipal unions that they were full of ****.

    And frankly, I am tiring of the whiney liberal parasites myself.

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