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Thread: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Campaign donations reduce profits, or increase losses.
    OMG! Where do you come up with these arguments? You claim to be smarter than the rest of us and then post bull**** like this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Might want to do a little historical reading on the founders reasoning in choosing a representative form of government for the country, versus 'direct democracy'.

    Or not
    I don't need to re-learn history to know that when you thought Walker was toast, it was Democracy in action and it was beautiful. Now, when things didn't go your way, you claim it's "mob rule", and not good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    OMG! Where do you come up with these arguments? You claim to be smarter than the rest of us and then post bull**** like this?
    Actually what he said is true.......but ONLY for the IMMEDIATE SHORT TERM....over the long term however the opposite is generally true.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    OMG! Where do you come up with these arguments? You claim to be smarter than the rest of us and then post bull**** like this?
    You have to be capable of the most basic logic to see it.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I don't need to re-learn history to know that when you thought Walker was toast, it was Democracy in action and it was beautiful. Now, when things didn't go your way, you claim it's "mob rule", and not good.
    Delusion and strawmen do not masquerade well as argument. Nor does an inability to follow a conversation. FYI.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham, replying to Karl View Post
    Perhaps if unions spent more time working for their members and not to consolidate power for themselves, they'd be better off. There are no "right wing laws" there are only "laws".

    While socialists like yourself demonize capitalism as a matter of course, the world goes on. Either unions step up to the plate and change with the times or die ---- so far they're fighting the change and are dooming themselves to die.
    Deluision and strawmen do not masquerade well as argument. FYI.

    Unions are being destroyed by the government. There is little one can do to fight back against that, other than at the ballot box (which they are doing, but is an uphill battle against non-stop right wing propaganda and bottomless coffers of right wing corporate money).

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects


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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Do feel free to answer the question. What direction are you looking at it from? Or is it as I suspected...nothing of any substance?
    Ask a valid question and explain what you mean. ALl I saw was an attempt at an insult. If you have something of substance ask it, and explain it as I really don't know what you're asking.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Deluision and strawmen do not masquerade well as argument. FYI.

    Unions are being destroyed by the government. There is little one can do to fight back against that, other than at the ballot box (which they are doing, but is an uphill battle against non-stop right wing propaganda and bottomless coffers of right wing corporate money).
    Please link us to credible proof that "the government" is destroying unions. First, I'd remind you that "the government" is the will of the people. (Unions certainly don't make up a majority of voters in this country....) Second, I would remind you that our government most often takes the side of workers in union disputes and arbitration. Wasn't it Boeing who was disallowed from moving jobs from a state out east to a RTW state? I don't know how you can make that statement.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Well I don't know about being silly, but when I joined the military - and again when I reenlisted, I signed a contract. It was quite explicit on my obligation to provide a service. Signing contracts with specified sunsets to which both parties are obligated assuming the non-arisal of specific outlined circumstances doesn't exactly make one not a public employee.
    Employees can quit. They are not obligated to stay. There is no such obligations. Companies sign contracts. Employees are not US property. Soldiers are. Again, your purposefully ignore differences.



    Hilariously Wrong. What in the world gives you the idea that politicians have as much an incentive to spend less than their revenues than the private sector? Where do you find evidence of this?

    Private businesses that do not consistently make profit die. Governments that consistently do not make profit... here's a hint.



    They don't as a matter of definition, which does not mean that they can't, or that in the case of government they don't.



    It does indeed. The problem being that one side is often more powerful than the other - and in the case of government, one side can actually control the other.
    I don't know whay you have such trouble addressing ideas in their entirity, especially when you lose the meaning so easily. I have spent years trying to determine if Update was correct that you were disingenous and purposefully do this, or if you really don't know what you're doing. But, in any case, the fact remians, two sides sit at the table. One side does not run the other and both have to sign the agreement. Both private and public have to be concern with the budget. Both have leaders who fail and leaders who succeed. The private sector has no better record than the government officals, see the auto industry as an example of some failure in the private sector.

    Now break this dwon in the twenty response and see if you can miss the point altogether.



    They did indeed make poor decisions. However, they were faced with powerful unions who had the ability to coerce them into doing so. If I offer to split a sandwich with you 75-25, and you argue that's not fair, and I point out that I am holding a tire iron and look at all your teeth it would be a shame if you were to lose some of them... that's not exactly fair negotiation.
    another example of you missing the point entirely. :swoosh:

    That is incorrect - in private negotiations management represents the company's desire to make a profit. In public negotiation, management can represent the union it is negotiating with.
    Nonsense. Manage represnts the tax payers. They do not work for the unions. You overstate any influence unions have but light years.

    Apparently you haven't been paying attention. Even the Governator had to bow down to someone bigger and badder than him - 80 cents of every government dollar in California goes to Public Employee Compensation, their fiscal hole is bigger than ever, and the state is collapsing because of it. In most localities, the most powerful political force is the Teachers Union.
    Not sure how you think this answers me at all. Does he or any of them answer to the voter or not? Can the electorate not elect someone else?

    At the local and even at the state level, our elected leaders often answer more to public sector unions than the public sector unions do to them. That's an inverted power structure, and it means that the voters (who are powerful only as much as their representatives are) are effectively neutered in a general basis from affecting their own government. As AFSCME's Larry Scanlon put it: "We're the Big Dog."
    Accepting commontary as fact again I see. I do wish you'd learn the difference.


    Yes. And when they deny those services to the public, they are working for themselves. When they use their positions as political weapons, they are working for themselves. When they push fiscally suicidal policy on State and Local populations in order to suck as much out of a dessicated state before it collapses, they are working for themselves. Wisconsin's voters decided they wanted a public education system, and the teachers union decided that if they wanted to protest instead, too f'ing bad for the voters.
    And Governor Wlaker is not using those jobs as political weapons? If any fool accepts what you said, they have to consider it works both ways. Workers of all stripes for both for someone else and for themselves. independently wealthy people rarely work for someone else. You do understand how working for a wage actually works, don't you? Like anyone else, an employee, not a soldier, seeks to make as much as he or she can. if they ahve no voice, they ar emuch likely to make less. With a voice, they couold do better. It works this way in both the private and public sectors.

    Actually I want teachers salaries to increase, and I want those increases to be tied to merit, so that we attract and keep good ones. Woops turns out you have no idea what your opposition is about.
    Merit? So, if I teach at a wealthy selective school, I will have more success and thus I will have merit. If I work at a troubled school, odds are strong there will be less success, thus no merit? That's another subject, but I'm sure the point would be lost on you anyway.

    However, you are complaing about that they make, repeatedly. And for the small number of poor teachers there are, the argument that you're only targetting them really holds no water at all.

    Everyone lobbies - but they are all private citizens. "Government" should not be an interest group, especially given the exceedingly dangerous interest group it has proven to be.
    Employees are nto government. They are private individuals who work for the government. Not government.

    You know, opensecrets.org keeps a list of it's heavy hitters, which depicts the largest political donors between 1989 and 2012. You might be interested in their top 20.
    yes, they donate. So do others. But who would they don't to if they didn't get their way? Answer, the same people. It works that way with all donors, which is why so many donate to each side. the influence works both ways, for all of them. You have too simplistic a view. The answer is not to attack workers, but remove money from politics altogether.



    all you can counter with is an ad hominem? par for the course.

    But let me get this straight. You believe that if a politician is put in his seat by a Public Union, and knows he can be yanked from it by a Public Union, then he will not then be pliable to that Unions' demands?
    CP you have a clear history with what you read and accept unchallenged. You can call that an ad hominem if you like, but the issue is real and problematic in debates with you. I always ahve to know where it came from because your source seelction si suspect.

    And no, unions do not by themselves put anyone in office. They do not have that power (see Walker in Wis.)


    Misrepresentation how? Them's the numbers. Unsurprisingly, there is a positive correlation between unionized public workforce and public debt. Of the 10 States in the worst fiscal shape, all but one of them give collective bargaining to their employees, and that one (Louisiana) was hit by Hurricane Katrina. Equally unsurprisingly, the chart was put together by CATO, who does a pretty good job of tracking this stuff.
    The how I can't say until I study your source. it would not be the first time you presented something as fact from a questional soruce that wasn't quite what it reported. Also, do you know what a causal relationship error is? So many confuse something as the cause because it happens at the same time or before something else. Show causation requires a lot more.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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