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Thread: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

  1. #1071
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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Payroll is overhead, so no, employees aren't connected to profits.
    Jersus, no wonder this recovery is taking so long!
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    What if I decide to quit the military, can I walk in say I quit and go home?
    Not without incurring penalties. However, that's a good point. We in the military need to unionize more than civilian government employees!



    However, you didn't argue that there were differences between military and civilian service; you argued that we were not public employees.

    This is but one difference.
    Actually it's not. It is true of anyone who signs a contract to provide labor over a specified period of time to the Defense Department.

    Same with the satate actually. They are free to ask the people if we need police officers, firefighters or teachers. They can reduce force and be responsive to the needs of the people. And they can ask if they want to pay for these services, and the people can elect people who will or won't. NO ONE is held at gun point.
    That doesn't really answer the point at all. Unions attached to private industry have definite limits placed on their capriciousness by the need for their host to maintain profitability, putting out a quality product at a decent price. Unions attached to public services have no such limits except at the very extremes of State and Local bankruptcy. And even then their power to continue to drive the state into the ditch is impressive (see: California).

    As in slaves?
    No. As in public servants. Public employees are supposed to work for the populace, not the other way around.

    No it is the issue. Two sit down to the table
    One of which owes everything to the other, can be pulled from their position by the other, and knows it. Which one has the advantage?

    They can do what any business does and negotiate.
    Except that business management is negotiating in the interest of the business, whereas public negotiators are often negotiating in the interest of the public union that they are beholden to, and who is sitting across the table from them.

    And yet, other states have union, and their influence, and are not in trouble.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Filed under BS thanks!
    "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

  4. #1074
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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Not without incurring penalties. However, that's a good point. We in the military need to unionize more than civilian government employees!



    However, you didn't argue that there were differences between military and civilian service; you argued that we were not public employees.
    Still playing silly. It's been a good tactic for you. You can't address things properly, so you play silly. I can quit as a teacher, firefighter, or police officer. And with no real difficulty are all. This is a difference. A real one. The military called me property. None of the other proffessions do this.


    Actually it's not. It is true of anyone who signs a contract to provide labor over a specified period of time to the Defense Department.
    Not the same thing. A contract has an obligation to provide a service, not the individual workers to become US property. You are once again confusing things. It happens when you skip the issue to try to and skew your response.


    That doesn't really answer the point at all. Unions attached to private industry have definite limits placed on their capriciousness by the need for their host to maintain profitability, putting out a quality product at a decent price. Unions attached to public services have no such limits except at the very extremes of State and Local bankruptcy. And even then their power to continue to drive the state into the ditch is impressive (see: California).
    Frst, unions don't attach anything in either. Keep that in mind. State has as much interest to work within a budget as does the private sector. And unions don't drive. It takes two sides to agree to a contract. The auto industry made poor decisions on union contracts they signed. It was the union made them, it was that they exercised poor judgment. The same can be said about state negotiations. And yes, elected officals answer to voters as private does board members.

    No. As in public servants. Public employees are supposed to work for the populace, not the other way around.
    WHo suggeste dotherwise? Other than you, who suggested they are workers working for a wage. When the firefighter runs into a burning building and saves alife and puts out the fire, he's working for the populace. When a police officer enters into a dangerous situtation, he's working for the populace. And when a teacher walks into an overcrowded classroom, facing all kinds of disrespect from children, parents, and conservatives. they are woking for the populace.

    You just want them to do it on the cheap and with second class status. Call it like it is.

    One of which owes everything to the other, can be pulled from their position by the other, and knows it. Which one has the advantage?
    No, like so many you overstate in order to forgive responsibility to one. Everyone has lobbying groups. Business, wealthy, the I hater teachers movement often called republicans, all of the have groups that lobby. Union has no more, and perhaps less, influence than all of them. They are just the latest scapegoat.


    Except that business management is negotiating in the interest of the business, whereas public negotiators are often negotiating in the interest of the public union that they are beholden to, and who is sitting across the table from them.
    What worthless conservative hit peice are you getting this crap from? In other words, I don't buy it.


    I'd like to see where this comes from. Make sure it isn't just another misrepresentation.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    No, I am telling you that if you don't make any profit for a period of time your employees won't be getting any raises, and may in fact get a pay cut, or a pink slip.
    And, none of that has a damn thing to do with a company spending money on campaign ads.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Hardly. But do feel free to advance the argument with something constructive.

    Do feel free to answer the question. What direction are you looking at it from? Or is it as I suspected...nothing of any substance?
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Still playing silly. It's been a good tactic for you. You can't address things properly, so you play silly. I can quit as a teacher, firefighter, or police officer. And with no real difficulty are all. This is a difference. A real one. The military called me property. None of the other proffessions do this.

    Not the same thing. A contract has an obligation to provide a service, not the individual workers to become US property. You are once again confusing things. It happens when you skip the issue to try to and skew your response.
    Well I don't know about being silly, but when I joined the military - and again when I reenlisted, I signed a contract. It was quite explicit on my obligation to provide a service. Signing contracts with specified sunsets to which both parties are obligated assuming the non-arisal of specific outlined circumstances doesn't exactly make one not a public employee.

    First, unions don't attach anything in either. Keep that in mind.

    State has as much interest to work within a budget as does the private sector.
    Hilariously Wrong. What in the world gives you the idea that politicians have as much an incentive to spend less than their revenues than the private sector? Where do you find evidence of this?

    Private businesses that do not consistently make profit die. Governments that consistently do not make profit... here's a hint.

    And unions don't drive.
    They don't as a matter of definition, which does not mean that they can't, or that in the case of government they don't.

    It takes two sides to agree to a contract.
    It does indeed. The problem being that one side is often more powerful than the other - and in the case of government, one side can actually control the other.

    The auto industry made poor decisions on union contracts they signed. It was the union made them, it was that they exercised poor judgment.
    They did indeed make poor decisions. However, they were faced with powerful unions who had the ability to coerce them into doing so. If I offer to split a sandwich with you 75-25, and you argue that's not fair, and I point out that I am holding a tire iron and look at all your teeth it would be a shame if you were to lose some of them... that's not exactly fair negotiation.

    The same can be said about state negotiations
    That is incorrect - in private negotiations management represents the company's desire to make a profit. In public negotiation, management can represent the union it is negotiating with.

    And yes, elected officals answer to voters as private does board members.
    Apparently you haven't been paying attention. Even the Governator had to bow down to someone bigger and badder than him - 80 cents of every government dollar in California goes to Public Employee Compensation, their fiscal hole is bigger than ever, and the state is collapsing because of it. In most localities, the most powerful political force is the Teachers Union.

    As SEIU likes to brag, they have the power to elect their own bosses. But when you elect your own boss, you sit at both ends of the negotiating table. And when you sit at both ends of the negotiating table..... (...drumroll...) you control it.

    And they do elect their own boss. It turns out that when you look at those actual local elections that Public Union Support Is Just As Or More Powerful A Political Force Than Incumbency.
    ...incumbency boosted a candidate’s reelection chances by 47 percent. Union support boosted the odds by 56 percent. The combination of union support and incumbency boosted the odds by 76 percent — an important factor, since many of those incumbents became incumbents on the strength of earlier union support, meaning that the unions are compounding the effectiveness of their electoral efforts over time, stocking the incumbent pipeline with their favored candidates...
    At the local and even at the state level, our elected leaders often answer more to public sector unions than the public sector unions do to them. That's an inverted power structure, and it means that the voters (who are powerful only as much as their representatives are) are effectively neutered in a general basis from affecting their own government. As AFSCME's Larry Scanlon put it: "We're the Big Dog."

    Who suggested dotherwise? Other than you, who suggested they are workers working for a wage. When the firefighter runs into a burning building and saves alife and puts out the fire, he's working for the populace. When a police officer enters into a dangerous situtation, he's working for the populace. And when a teacher walks into an overcrowded classroom, facing all kinds of disrespect from children, parents, and conservatives. they are woking for the populace.
    Yes. And when they deny those services to the public, they are working for themselves. When they use their positions as political weapons, they are working for themselves. When they push fiscally suicidal policy on State and Local populations in order to suck as much out of a dessicated state before it collapses, they are working for themselves. Wisconsin's voters decided they wanted a public education system, and the teachers union decided that if they wanted to protest instead, too f'ing bad for the voters.

    You just want them to do it on the cheap and with second class status. Call it like it is.
    Actually I want teachers salaries to increase, and I want those increases to be tied to merit, so that we attract and keep good ones. Woops turns out you have no idea what your opposition is about.

    No, like so many you overstate in order to forgive responsibility to one. Everyone has lobbying groups. Business, wealthy, the I hater teachers movement often called republicans, all of the have groups that lobby.
    Everyone lobbies - but they are all private citizens. "Government" should not be an interest group, especially given the exceedingly dangerous interest group it has proven to be.

    Union has no more, and perhaps less, influence than all of them.
    You know, opensecrets.org keeps a list of it's heavy hitters, which depicts the largest political donors between 1989 and 2012. You might be interested in their top 20.

    1 ActBlue
    2 AT&T Inc
    3 American Fedn of State, County & Municipal Employees
    4 National Assn of Realtors
    5 National Education Assn
    6 Goldman Sachs
    7 Service Employees International Union
    8 American Assn for Justice
    9 Intl Brotherhood of Electrical Workers
    10 American Federation of Teachers
    11 Laborers Union
    12 Teamsters Union
    13 Carpenters & Joiners Union
    14 Communications Workers of America
    15 Citigroup Inc
    16 American Medical Assn
    17 United Food & Commercial Workers Union
    18 United Auto Workers
    19 National Auto Dealers Assn
    20 Machinists & Aerospace Workers Union
    Well huh. Would you look at that.... And that's at the Federal level. The State level is even more impressive.

    What worthless conservative hit peice are you getting this crap from? In other words, I don't buy it.
    all you can counter with is an ad hominem? par for the course.

    But let me get this straight. You believe that if a politician is put in his seat by a Public Union, and knows he can be yanked from it by a Public Union, then he will not then be pliable to that Unions' demands?

    I'd like to see where this comes from. Make sure it isn't just another misrepresentation.
    Misrepresentation how? Them's the numbers. Unsurprisingly, there is a positive correlation between unionized public workforce and public debt. Of the 10 States in the worst fiscal shape, all but one of them give collective bargaining to their employees, and that one (Louisiana) was hit by Hurricane Katrina. Equally unsurprisingly, the chart was put together by CATO, who does a pretty good job of tracking this stuff.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Since right wing laws say that you can get union benefits and union wages without paying union dues, of course there is no advantage of having a union any longer. You can get it for free.
    Perhaps if unions spent more time working for their members and not to consolidate power for themselves, they'd be better off. There are no "right wing laws" there are only "laws".

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Until all the unions are gone, of course, then the capitalists will lick their chops and drop the hammer on the backs of the workers; at which point there will be no going back, because the right wing will have, by then, legislated unions powerless (as Scott Walker has effectively done in Wisconsin).
    While socialists like yourself demonize capitalism as a matter of course, the world goes on. Either unions step up to the plate and change with the times or die ---- so far they're fighting the change and are dooming themselves to die.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    But, Walker did nothing to warrant a recall in the first place. And if you want to talk about mobs, how about all of the teachers and other government union workers who neglected the duties of their jobs to camp out and protest, and all of the whiny death threats from sore losers? Looks like mob does not rule.
    The democrats overplayed their hand in Wisconsin by backing the unions.... they lost and now pay the price.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    And, none of that has a damn thing to do with a company spending money on campaign ads.
    Campaign donations reduce profits, or increase losses.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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