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Thread: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

  1. #1031
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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    No response to this Boo?
    Didn't see it. Sorry.

    Actually, they want more. We don't have any real power, as we are not a union. Some want a union because schools with unions are doing much better than we are. We've refrained hoping to work with administration. the result has been that workers have lsot jobs, lost benefits, while adminsitration ahs gotten bonuses. This doesn't sit well. But, when called up on to act, too many do nothing. Some think it is because we don't have a union, andf therefore risk being fired.

    Most places where there is a union, everyone gets the benefits of the union. My wife worked at a hopsital some years ago, and when she crossed a doctor (actually saving a life by doing so), a union representive was threr even though she wasn't a member. They mad sure her rights in the negotiated contract were followed. I don;t know if you understand how difficult it is for a nurse to act against a doctor, as being right doesn't matter at all. But without that help, she'd have not done as well as she did.

    So while I can't speak for all unions everywhere, I do come from a family of unions members across the country, and I hear this from them often. others benefit from their efforts without paying.

    As for the propaganda, well listen to it. Most people manage to do their jobs without a lot of actual contact with problems. When they watch TV and see the constant attacks, it is only natural that people who tend to lean conservative to start with would buy into much of it. This is not to say unions are perfect. They are not. But the propaganda is a distorted view that actually harms workers when they buy into it.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    Thank you for your consistently insightful and valuable contribution to the debate [...]
    It's not my fault that your argument sucked. Don't shoot the messenger

    You did get the correlation/causation thing right (regarding AdamT's chart). But you soiled that one success with a string of unrelated failures (as I pointed out in my previous post, which you seem to have problems understanding, which again is not my fault, nor critical to my criticisms (that you understand them)).
    Last edited by Karl; 06-12-12 at 05:12 PM.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    It's not my fault that your argument sucked. Don't shoot the messenger

    You did get the correlation/causation thing right (regarding AdamT's chart). But you soiled that one success with a string of unrelated failures (as I pointed out in my previous post, which you seem to have problems understanding, which again is not my fault, nor critical to my criticisms (that you understand them)).
    Thanks...again for your consistency.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Kind of. I see quite a few who don't want educatin paid for. But I'm likely looking ina different direction than you are.
    Oh, what direction is that? Down your nose?
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    This is subjective. But even if what you say is true...so what? At least I am making it on my own via my own abilities and I am not dependent on someone else. I value independence far more than dependence.
    No, it isn't subjective. The more emloyees there are in the bargaining unit the more power they have. If you go out on strike yourself you will just get fired. But I respect your desire to be independent. Personally I think this country has a real need for unions, but the unions we have mostly suck donkey dicks.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes, you want only employers to be able to donate. Keeping the advantage in their court. It's fair when they do it, but not when workers do it. I understand that completely. The thing is laws effect employees, and the money employers have pumpted in has hurt workers and unions. Unions can't really keep up. But, you would prefer the advantage be even larger. I'm sure you've internalized some pro-managment rationale for this?
    My dues should be for collective bargaining isn't that what Unions are for? I am not in favor of Obama, yet my money that I HAVE to pay will be used to help get him elected against my will? Employers can donate to who ever they want, they aren't taking money directly from my paycheck to do so. I'm surprised you can't see the difference. I'm sure you've internalized some pro-labor rationale for this.
    "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    No, it isn't subjective. The more emloyees there are in the bargaining unit the more power they have. If you go out on strike yourself you will just get fired. But I respect your desire to be independent. Personally I think this country has a real need for unions, but the unions we have mostly suck donkey dicks.
    The problem is what the unions do with the power they have... apparently many union members don't see the advantages of having a union any longer. The tactics they use may have worked in the 1950's and 1960's in their heyday, not so much any more. Certain areas do need unions... most do not. Business has by and large found ways to work with their employees without unions. Those sectors that have not, will still need unions until those sectors like the rest of the U.S., see their employees not as chattel but as their lifeline to growing and expanding their business.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post
    My dues should be for collective bargaining isn't that what Unions are for? I am not in favor of Obama, yet my money that I HAVE to pay will be used to help get him elected against my will? Employers can donate to who ever they want, they aren't taking money directly from my paycheck to do so. I'm surprised you can't see the difference. I'm sure you've internalized some pro-labor rationale for this.
    If you work for Acme Corp. and they donate money to Obama -- money that would otherwise go to salary and benefits, then you would be in exactly the same situation.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    If you work for Acme Corp. and they donate money to Obama -- money that would otherwise go to salary and benefits, then you would be in exactly the same situation.
    So they are directly taking it out of my paycheck? If they want to take a portion of their profit and give it away, that's their prerogative and yours. Unions take money directly out of my paycheck and give it to people I don't support. If your argument is Acme Corp. would give this money to me if they didn't donate it instead, you'll need to prove that.
    "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    The problem is what the unions do with the power they have... apparently many union members don't see the advantages of having a union any longer. The tactics they use may have worked in the 1950's and 1960's in their heyday, not so much any more. Certain areas do need unions... most do not. Business has by and large found ways to work with their employees without unions. Those sectors that have not, will still need unions until those sectors like the rest of the U.S., see their employees not as chattel but as their lifeline to growing and expanding their business.
    I agree. The unions need to perform a useful function for employees AND employers, as they do in many other countries. They need to recognize that the health of the company is important to the long-term benefit of its employees.

    At the same time, I think that the death of the labor movement has a lot to do with the ever growing disparity between blue collar and white collar pay.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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