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Thread: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Seems awfully close to be pure coincidence....

    Attachment 67129055
    Union propaganda. Again.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Seems awfully close to be pure coincidence....

    Attachment 67129055
    Seems awfully close to be pure coincidence:

    Union Job Decline.JPG
    "There is an excellent correlation between giving society what it wants and making money, and almost no correlation between the desire to make money and how much money one makes." ~Dalio

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Union propaganda. Again.
    In what sense is it propaganda?
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    In what sense is it propaganda?
    In the sense that Maggie's strawman told her it was

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    What might appear to be "rational" is not necessarily the same thing as something that is supported by empirical evidence. [...]
    Empirical evidence is not going to solve the chicken or the egg question, which is what I addressed; namely, union wages are higher than non-union wages not because of any external factors (such as cost of living), but because the union negotiates from a superior position (in fact, the non-union doesn't negotiate at all).

    High wages did not come before the union (the jury is still out on the chicken and the egg). That's overly simplistic, and if one dug one might find contrarian examples, but that is what my comment about rational thought is based upon.

    Go hire a non-union electrician in Town A, then go to the union hall and hire a union electrician in Town A. Any mountain of empirical evidence is not going to hide the surely inescapable fact that the union man will make more than the non-union man (barring a prevailing wage clause).

    In certain industries just the specter of unionization keeps non-union wages higher than they would be otherwise; this is another example of rational thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    ...(in fact, the non-union doesn't negotiate at all).
    Bull. I'm not in a labor union, and I absolutely negotiate my own pay and benefits with my employer. I wouldn't have it any other way. Why would anyone who is a hard worker be interested in having their pay and benefits negotiated for them by a union? I would be pissed if another worker, who wasn't as good at their job as I am, made the same or more pay and benefits simply because they had more seniority. I can't believe that there are people who actually think that's a good thing.
    Last edited by The Man; 06-11-12 at 06:50 PM.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    Bull. I'm not in a labor union, and I absolutely negotiate my own pay and benefits with my employer. I wouldn't have it any other way. [...]
    Your (or my) situation is irrelevant in this comparison, which is traditionally related to manufacturing and other large scale employers that require a large unified labor pool (mining, interstate transportation, skilled trades, etc).

    If you hire on at a Toyota plant in the U.S., you'll be taking what they offer. Period.
    Last edited by Karl; 06-11-12 at 06:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Your (or my) situation is irrelevant in this comparison, which is traditionally related to manufacturing and other large scale employers that require a large unified labor pool (mining, interstate transportation, skilled trades, etc).
    But why would you not want to negotiate your own pay even if you did work in mining, or manufacturing, etc.? Why would you be ok with the guy working next to you, who could be a total slacker, or just naturally not as good of a worker, getting the same or more pay, raises, benefits, etc., simply because they're in the union too? That makes no sense to me, and frankly I don't see why that makes sense to anyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    If you hire on at a Toyota plant in the U.S., you'll be taking what they offer. Period.
    That may be true when you start, same as with a union job. But, there's always room for negotiation based on merit if you're not in a union, always.

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    Re: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker survives recall effort, NBC News projects

    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    [...] Why would you be ok with the guy working next to you, who could be a total slacker, or just naturally not as good of a worker, getting the same or more pay, raises, benefits, etc., simply because they're in the union too? [...]
    Because I am not a jealous, petty, or narcissistic person.

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