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Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

Karl said:
[...] and due to the fact that about 400 of 2600 people (15%) have been erroneously purged (not just one WWII veteran), [...]
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ttwtt78640 said:
You make no distinction from actually being purged and being flagged as needing more information to prevent being purged (audited), a big diference. [...]
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Fair enough, as long as you'll grant that
failing to reply to the letter, or
the letter not being delivered, or
not being at home for 30 days to receive the letter,
you will be purged.

"and due to the fact that about 400 of 2600 people (15%) have been erroneously flagged for purging (not just one WWII veteran),"​
 
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ttwtt78640 said:
[...] Florida, as any other state, must keep its records up to date, or they are useless. [...]
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Bull****. Florida and the GOP machine in general is trying to dump Democrat voters wherever, whenever, how ever they can. It's been that way for half a century, everyone knows that -- even if they won't admit it.
 
Karl said:
Graphic is in the The Nation link I posted. Check it out.
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Thanks, I missed that. But it doesn't really answer my question. Someone can tell us stats like "400 of 2600 people (15%) have been erroneously purged", so if you know that, what percentage were legitimately purged? The remaining 85%?

If that's the case, considering those 15% can verify their citizenship and get right back on the roles when they do, looks like a good effort.

Btw, when I'm away from home for a month, I generally have someone look after my mail for me - considering I want to come back to a house that has electricity, water, garbage collection and the like. If these folks are not getting their mail, or not reading it, can't really do much for them anyway as they won't know where the polls are come voting day anyway.
 
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clownboy said:
Thanks, I missed that. But it doesn't really answer my question. Someone can tell us stats like "400 of 2600 people (15%) have been erroneously purged", so if you know that, what percentage were legitimately purged? The remaining 85%? [...]
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I doubt the state of FL would release that information, since I'm sure it will disprove their case. However, referring again to the graphic, you can do the math:

Duvall County: 18 on purge list, 17 did not respond, 1 cleared as legitimate voter. So, the 17 had moved on (another state, another country, who knows?) or knew they weren't legal to vote, or simply moved to another FL address and did not get the letter. There is simply no way to know, other than tracking each of those 17 down.

Citrus County: 3 on purge list, 1 did not respond, 2 cleared as legitimate voter. Yes, this is probably the worst example for FL's argument.

Miami-Dade County: 1638 on purge list, 1243 did not respond, 385 cleared as legitimate voter. In this case the math does not add up, so it looks like they identified 10 unqualified voters. Doing similar math on the other larger counties shows 2 unqualified voters in Broward County, 1 in Charlotte County, 3 in Orange County, 1 in Brevard County, and 1 in Pinellas county, for a total of 18 valid hits out of some 2150 shots -- with some 400 definitely invalid hits (those that 'proved' themselves legitimate), and some 1,700 that did not respond at all for whatever reason.

Those are really bad stats. I understand the desire to 'clean up' the registration rolls, but all the evidence (and lack thereof) indicates the zeal to do so is not based on a real problem, but an imagined -- or, more likely, concocted -- one.
 
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A much more civilized approach would be a letter along the lines of:

Dear Registered Voter
Our database shows that you may not be eligible to vote. Either please bring proof of citizenship to the voting registrar within 30 days, or bring proof of citizenship when you show up to vote. If our database is in error we will make the corrections at that time. If you can do neither then please contact us to discuss alternate arrangements, for you will otherwise not be allowed to vote.

So, there ya go, no command to appear in front of the Politburo for inspection of your papers -- or else. If the person never shows up to vote, then strike them from the registration rolls for the next election; they've probably moved on, or are indeed illegally registered. 'Problem' solved, and nobody gets nicked for simply failing to meet a deadline or not showing up for 'inspection'.

IMHO the GOP game plan is to keep people away from the polls, which is why the above would not be considered by them.
 
If Governor Rick Scott can be proven to have committed a federal crime, he and anyone who willingly went along with him should be thrown in jail. Period.
 
Scott's approval rating is down to 31%. 56% disapprove. His voter suppression campaign is opposed by both Democrats and Republicans in the state.

Butt hay -- he has lots of business experience!!
 
teamosil said:
Ugh. Apparently you don't understand. Let me go over it again.

The problem isn't removing undocumented immigrants from the rosters. That's fine. It's kind of pointless given that all studies ever done have shown that virtually no undocumented immigrants vote, but whatever.

The problem is that they are excluding people based on extremely suspect criteria. For example, just having the same name as an undocumented immigrant. "Jose Garcia" or whatever. Guess what, there are hundreds of Jose Garcias in Florida. They will all be excluded if there is one Jose Garcia that is know to be an undocumented immigrant. Get it?
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So you'd be in favor of voter ID to weed them out?
 
Karl said:
Ding-ding-ding -- we have a winner!

Today's right relies on fear to implement their agenda. Fear that a black president is going to steal America. Fear that a Hispanic is going to steal your job. Fear that a Muslim is going to kill you. Fear that an illegal alien is going to steal your vote. Fear that a third world tin pot country is going to nuke us (that doesn't even possess nuclear weapons).

They hope to use that fear to implement their brand of fascism. Any facts that may offset or invalidate that fear must be marginalized, dismissed, or attacked. The minions know that, and carry the flag of the wannabe oppressors accordingly.
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And you wonder why no one takes you seriously. You cant even buy into the other side having good intentions about anything. You have to demonize. Go ahead take one more step and your post is a straight up Godwin.

Like it or not, part of a Secretary of State's job is to make sure voter rolls are up to date. Thats what is being done.
 
AdamT said:
Scott's approval rating is down to 31%. 56% disapprove.
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Could you show why this is? Cite the polls you are quoting? Breakdown the demographics, and internals of the polls leading you to your decision for us? Or are we supposed to take your word that it is because of this?

His voter suppression campaign is opposed by both Democrats and Republicans in the state.
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My guess is that you may have a RHINO or two that are really more demo light than they are conservative that don't want non eligible voters purged from the rolls, most likely because they think, and act like liberal/progressives in their own elections.

Any American that believes in our system should welcome scrutiny of eligibility.


Butt hay -- he has lots of business experience!!
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What does that have to do with this action? Why not drop the hack crap.


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
Could you show why this is? Cite the polls you are quoting? Breakdown the demographics, and internals of the polls leading you to your decision for us? Or are we supposed to take your word that it is because of this?
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Here's the poll. I'll let you do what conservatives always do: deny the validity of polls they don't like while swearing by the results of polls they do like.

My guess is that you may have a RHINO or two
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Again -- what conservatives always do: accuse those they disagree with of being illegitimate. In this case there are 30 Republican elections supervisors who have raised their middle fingers to Scott's voter purge.

What does that have to do with this action? Why not drop the hack crap.
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Pretty obvious, isn't it? Conservatives big theme this year is the importance of business experience. No one has more business experience than Scott, and he is doing a crap job.
 
Prof. Peabody said:
So you'd be in favor of voter ID to weed them out?
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Actual voter ID where they just require a valid photo ID I don't have a huge objection to. It would cause more people to be denied the vote who have the legal right to vote than it would prevent frauds. The studies show that about 0.1% of votes (at the very most) cast in a polling place are fraudulent, but 1% of people who are legally allowed to vote lack any valid photo ID. So, it would make the electoral system up to 0.9% less accurate.

But, that's not a huge deal. That isn't a major blow to democracy.

What is a huge deal is all these acts of extreme election fraud calling themselves "voter ID" laws that tack on all kinds of other requirements to try to manipulate the results. For example, if you're in a district where the incumbent is disfavored by students, but favored by the elderly, he'll push not to allow student IDs or out of state IDs, but to allow medicare cards. Or, if you're in a district where there is a military base that votes against the incumbent, but the poor vote for the incumbent, you'll allow IDs with out of date addresses (the poor move much more often), but you won't allow military ID or out of state IDs. Etc. With all those manipulations in place, up to 10% of people lack IDs they decide to accept and that is a truly severe blow to democracy. That is enough to make the election results no longer represent the will of the people and to de-legitimize the entire process.
 
AdamT said:
Here's the poll.
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Where? Where's the poll?

I'll let you do what conservatives always do: deny the validity of polls they don't like while swearing by the results of polls they do like.
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Surely you don't expect that people just take the headline, and narrative of any particular poll, and not look at internals, and make up of those polled do you?

Again -- what conservatives always do: accuse those they disagree with of being illegitimate. In this case there are 30 Republican elections supervisors who have raised their middle fingers to Scott's voter purge.
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How so? Are they refusing to cooperate? Are they showing empirically that the scrutiny is unwarranted? How are they flipping the bird? See, you shouldn't be able to just say stuff unchallanged Adam. Show me how.

Pretty obvious, isn't it? Conservatives big theme this year is the importance of business experience. No one has more business experience than Scott, and he is doing a crap job.
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Crap Job? He has created over 100K jobs, outpacing national growth. I'd say that is pretty good for a governor with an opposition legislation.


j-mac
 
AdamT said:
Here's the poll.
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Where? Where's the poll?

I'll let you do what conservatives always do: deny the validity of polls they don't like while swearing by the results of polls they do like.
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Surely you don't expect that people just take the headline, and narrative of any particular poll, and not look at internals, and make up of those polled do you?

Again -- what conservatives always do: accuse those they disagree with of being illegitimate. In this case there are 30 Republican elections supervisors who have raised their middle fingers to Scott's voter purge.
Click to expand...

How so? Are they refusing to cooperate? Are they showing empirically that the scrutiny is unwarranted? How are they flipping the bird? See, you shouldn't be able to just say stuff unchallanged Adam. Show me how.

Pretty obvious, isn't it? Conservatives big theme this year is the importance of business experience. No one has more business experience than Scott, and he is doing a crap job.
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Crap Job? He has created over 100K jobs, outpacing national growth. I'd say that is pretty good for a governor with an opposition legislation.


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
Where? Where's the poll?
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Oops, forgot the link: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/files/ppp_release_miscellaneousfl_0608121.pdf

Surely you don't expect that people just take the headline, and narrative of any particular poll, and not look at internals, and make up of those polled do you?
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I expect people to take every poll with a grain of salt -- but not to attack only polls that don't come out the way they want.

How so? Are they refusing to cooperate? Are they showing empirically that the scrutiny is unwarranted? How are they flipping the bird? See, you shouldn't be able to just say stuff unchallanged Adam. Show me how.
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All 67 state elections supervisors, including 30 Republicans, have told Scott to go pound sand. They have all told him that they are canceling the voter purge despite his demand that it continue.

Crap Job? He has created over 100K jobs, outpacing national growth. I'd say that is pretty good for a governor with an opposition legislation.
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Florida actually LOST jobs last month. And it would take a miracle for Scott to make good on his jobs promise. PolitiFact Florida | Scott-O-Meter: Create over 700,000 jobs
 
Did anyone read the article?

To spot noncitizens, though, the state began comparing voter rolls with a Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicle database that contains some citizenship information that the agency collects when people get a state ID such as a driver’s license.

But the citizenship data in many cases is out of date. That is, many people become citizens after they get their ID and then register to vote. But the highway safety database isn’t updated.

As a result, the state has performed its own checking and double-checking and winnowed down a pool of 180,000 potential noncitizens to a list of about 2,700. It is asking the counties to contact the voters by mail. Those who don’t respond within about two months of being contacted could be stricken from the rolls.

Read more here: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge - Florida - MiamiHerald.com
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That doesn't sound as unreasonable as the first half of the article makes it out to be. They started with a wide database, cross-checked records and came up with 2700 people that don't appear to be citizens. Then, they asked them to prove they have the right to vote.
 
ksu_aviator said:
Did anyone read the article?



That doesn't sound as unreasonable as the first half of the article makes it out to be. They started with a wide database, cross-checked records and came up with 2700 people that don't appear to be citizens. Then, they asked them to prove they have the right to vote.
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Agreed, and instead of looking at what is going on as being a good thing to protect the integrity of everyones vote, be it demo, or rep. Instead what we get is all out attack of the people in charge, phony arguments of voter disenfranchisement, and personal attack of anyone that dares even discuss anything other than letting non citizens vote. Now who is doing that, and why should be the real question.


j-mac
 
ksu_aviator said:
Did anyone read the article?



That doesn't sound as unreasonable as the first half of the article makes it out to be. They started with a wide database, cross-checked records and came up with 2700 people that don't appear to be citizens. Then, they asked them to prove they have the right to vote.
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So let's assume that they keep going and eventually come up with, say, 10,000 people who *may* not be citizens. The burden is then placed on these folks, most of whom are citizens, to prove their citizenship or be purged from the voter roles. Just picking numbers out of the air, let's say that 500 are elderly, or handicapped, and lack transportation, so they aren't able to contest the finding, but would have voted. Now let's say that there were 50 people who were legitimately non-citizens who would have voted and were purged. Under this scenario, was it still a worthwhile endeavor?
 
AdamT said:
So let's assume that they keep going and eventually come up with, say, 10,000 people who *may* not be citizens. The burden is then placed on these folks, most of whom are citizens, to prove their citizenship or be purged from the voter roles. Just picking numbers out of the air, let's say that 500 are elderly, or handicapped, and lack transportation, so they aren't able to contest the finding, but would have voted. Now let's say that there were 50 people who were legitimately non-citizens who would have voted and were purged. Under this scenario, was it still a worthwhile endeavor?
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Except you're building a strawman here. We can just as easily presume the resulting number of "legitimate non-citizens" is 5000 or 8000. As for the "elderly, or handicapped, and lack transportation", if they can't get to the office to verify their voting right how are they getting to the polls to vote? You know, even in Florida (as screwed up as that state is), there is free transport and bussing for the elderly and handicapped. And hey, they can call their registered party - you better believe the party will give them a ride to maintain their registration.
 
clownboy said:
Except you're building a strawman here. We can just as easily presume the resulting number of "legitimate non-citizens" is 5000 or 8000. As for the "elderly, or handicapped, and lack transportation", if they can't get to the office to verify their voting right how are they getting to the polls to vote? You know, even in Florida (as screwed up as that state is), there is free transport and bussing for the elderly and handicapped. And hey, they can call their registered party - you better believe the party will give them a ride to maintain their registration.
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First, we know from the preliminary results that the lists include a tiny percentage of illegitimate voters. Out of more than 2600 persons named, only SIX have been found to have voted. Busted: The 6 Florida voters who shouldn’t have - Florida - MiamiHerald.com

Second, people who can't get to a polling place can vote by absentee ballot. Obviously it would be far more difficult to attend a hearing to prove their innocence.
 
Purging the lists for illegal voters is always good. There are going to be misshaps and I don't think this is a "Republicans want to block minorities" vote kind of a thing.
 
ksu_aviator said:
Did anyone read the article?
That doesn't sound as unreasonable as the first half of the article makes it out to be. They started with a wide database, cross-checked records and came up with 2700 people that don't appear to be citizens. Then, they asked them to prove they have the right to vote.
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The 2,600 appeared to be the first batch; they have 182,000 to work on, and one would presume they intend to challenge all 182,000.

Out of those 2,600 they got at least 400 wrong (400 who responded and proved themselves citizens). The bigger problem is the 1,700 that didn't respond -- how many of those are legal voters that simply didn't respond for whatever reason? They'll be dumped after 30 days.

Bottom line, they could be less draconian about it, such as allowing those on the list to provide proof of citizenship at the polls when they actually show up to vote. Given FL's history, and the history of the GOP in general when it comes to voter disenfranchisement, odds are that the intent to purge Democrat voters is stronger than the urge to clean up the voting rolls in a non-partisan fashion.

[Secretary of State for the State of Florida (and co-chair of Bush's Florida election efforts) Katherine] Harris's purge of ineligible voters in Florida also removed eligible voters. Harris, along with state division of elections director Clay Roberts, and Governor Jeb Bush used an inaccurate ineligible-voter list that eliminated a disproportionate number of non-felon African Americans from Florida voter rolls. According to journalist Jake Tapper, the problem went uncorrected for two years despite the warnings and complaints of elections supervisor Ion Sancho, and affected the 2000 presidential election.[15]

Katherine Harris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Still waiting to hear a legitimate reason why purging the voter rolls of ethnic minorities is a good thing.
 
AdamT said:
First, we know from the preliminary results that the lists include a tiny percentage of illegitimate voters. Out of more than 2600 persons named, only SIX have been found to have voted. Busted: The 6 Florida voters who shouldn’t have - Florida - MiamiHerald.com
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That a nice turn you made, going from a "we can suppose" scenerio to this. Two things about this report - it's what's KNOWN thus far, and it does not say, or even guess how many dead voters were purged. How many of those dead also voted somehow after they were dead? How many of those asked for verification were actually non-ciitizens or not eligible to vote?

AdamT said:
Second, people who can't get to a polling place can vote by absentee ballot. Obviously it would be far more difficult to attend a hearing to prove their innocence.
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Don't know if you've ever worked with the elderly, the disadvantaged or the handicapped, but if you had, you'd know they require, they lean, a great deal on government services. There are, in communties across America and certainly throughout Florida, daily shuttles and transportation for those folks to government centers so they can do their business.

If a person is bed-ridden, and the sort to want to continue the exercise of their vote, I guarantee they've already made arrangements for interfacing with the government, local, state and federal.

Btw, what is the process for verification. You seem to have info I haven't seen posted. Is there a hearing?
 
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