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Thread: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

  1. #251
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    Re: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

    Quote Originally Posted by ksu_aviator View Post
    First, these people have to prove they are citizens because at the time they got their licenses they were not. This isn't some purge of democrats or latinos as it was billed. It is a systematic verification of voting rights based on facts. And this is not a court of law so there is no requirement for the election commission to prove anything. All these voters have to do is send in citizenship proof (which amounts to a number and a photo copy) and it is done. It is not some difficult, time consuming process.

    Second, your hypothetical is not even remotely related to reality and not worth addressing.
    Well, you appear to be just making things up, as it appears that these individuals who have been determined to be guilty unti proven innocent must request and attend a hearing in order to get back their voting rights.

    Daily Kos: Florida's voter purge targets 91-year-old decorated WWII vet
    Last edited by AdamT; 06-11-12 at 02:44 PM.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Well, you appear to be just making things up, as it appears that these individuals who have been determined to be guilty before being proven innocent must request and attend a hearing in order to get back their voting rights.

    Daily Kos: Florida's voter purge targets 91-year-old decorated WWII vet
    Um, checking to see if someone over 90 years of age is still "with us" is not unreasonable at all, IMHO.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Um, checking to see if someone over 90 years of age is still "with us" is not unreasonable at all, IMHO.
    So you think that everyone in America who is over 90 should be forced to attend a hearing to prove they're still alive? WTF?!
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post
    Far more voter fraud takes place in the vote by mail system. They need to computerize a cross reference system from the DMV, the IRS, addresses and death records. When the typical criteria for fraudulent voters have been met the mail in voter needs to verify their identity.
    Actually, validating it against those records would do absolutely no good at all in this case.

    If you are a legal Resident Alien, you will have a drivers license, SSN#, tax records, address, and everything else that Citizens have. However, you still do not have the right to vote until you become a citizen.

    Personally, I have long favored a form of "National ID" for this kind of purpose. Get rid of the Social Security card, it is worthless. My CostCo card is more of an ID then that is, because at least it has my photo on it. Go to a form of hard Social Security card with photo, biometric data and RFID on it, and simply have one of the fields be if you are a Resident or Citizen.

    But I know this will never happen, because to many on both sides are paranoid as hell and fear any kind of "National ID". And others would believe this to be some kind of conspiracy, or an attempt to remove the rights of everybody.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

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    Re: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    There is no greater fail than a Republican trying to hang his hat on the achievements of past Republicans who have since abandoned the GOP to join the Democrats, which is the case here. It was the civil rights movement, and Act, that pushed so many racist (pro Jim Crow) southern Democrats into the Republican Party.
    Actually, what happened in the South was a fundamental shift between generations.

    Until the early 1970's, you had the Democratic "Good ole' boy" network which controlled most of the politics in the South. These were Democrats, because that was also the party that supported slavery a century before. These are the Democrats that favored Jim Crowe, segregation, and all the other things that helped to make the South almost a third world nation inside the US.

    Then in the 1960's and early 1970's, things changed. The majority of younger kids who had grown up Post-WWII saw that "things are a changing", and wanted to change with them. These are the college age kids you saw marching along with Dr. King. They wanted the South to change, and realized that this would never happen under the Democratic Party in the region. It was to set in it's ways, to corrupt, and to much "good ole' boy".

    So they became Republicans. It was slow at first, but by the early 1980's enough of the "old guard" Democrats had retired or died that they started to replace the old school "Southern Democrats" and change the politics of the region. And the group that came in did not resemble Bull Connor, Art Hanes, or George Wallace. These Republicans were not the "good ole' boys" who had kept Segregation and Jim Crowe in place, but a group that rose in opposition to them and everything they stood for.

    And this is also the most conservative area of the country. Even most of your Democrats in this area would seem to be a solid Republican in the South. And if you took a Republican from California and dropped him in most areas of Georgia or Alabama, he will likely come off like a Democrat. Most people have never lived in the South, so have no idea what politics are like there.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

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    Re: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    Actually, what happened in the South was a fundamental shift between generations.

    Until the early 1970's, you had the Democratic "Good ole' boy" network which controlled most of the politics in the South. These were Democrats, because that was also the party that supported slavery a century before. These are the Democrats that favored Jim Crowe, segregation, and all the other things that helped to make the South almost a third world nation inside the US.

    Then in the 1960's and early 1970's, things changed. The majority of younger kids who had grown up Post-WWII saw that "things are a changing", and wanted to change with them. These are the college age kids you saw marching along with Dr. King. They wanted the South to change, and realized that this would never happen under the Democratic Party in the region. It was to set in it's ways, to corrupt, and to much "good ole' boy".

    So they became Republicans. It was slow at first, but by the early 1980's enough of the "old guard" Democrats had retired or died that they started to replace the old school "Southern Democrats" and change the politics of the region. And the group that came in did not resemble Bull Connor, Art Hanes, or George Wallace. These Republicans were not the "good ole' boys" who had kept Segregation and Jim Crowe in place, but a group that rose in opposition to them and everything they stood for.

    And this is also the most conservative area of the country. Even most of your Democrats in this area would seem to be a solid Republican in the South. And if you took a Republican from California and dropped him in most areas of Georgia or Alabama, he will likely come off like a Democrat. Most people have never lived in the South, so have no idea what politics are like there.
    Somehow that slow, generational change resulted in Goldwater winning several southern states that hadn't gone republican in generations, ie the the civil right act had the immediate effect of forcing a large-scale defection of southern democrats to the republican party (Goldwater opposed the Act).
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Once again, you missed my point, which from my experience is rather uncharacteristic of you.
    Well, what would you say if this is your vote? That you know that voting really does not matter, because even if you get your ballot in time to return it, odds are it still will not even be counted?

    And that this is a problem that has existed for decades?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    In many cases, races are already decided between two candidates, and no amount of absentee votes is capable of changing the outcome. As you know, absentee ballots are counted AFTER regular votes. These are the situations in which absentee ballots often go uncounted, because it simply doesn't matter as the race has already mathematically been decided no matter how the absentee vote is split.
    Actually, most times they are counted early in the morning on the day of the election. This is what the initial projections are made from, since these are the first votes tabulated. In fact, a great many times these "initial projections" (which you see on TV projection maps within an hour of polls opening) are based purely on absentee ballots are taken with a slight grain of salt, because most of them are from the elderly, a group that is more Conservative then most other groups.

    This is why the California ruleing was such a big deal. These ballots need to be turned in normally a week prior to General Voting, so they can all be checked and recorded.

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Now if military voters are being disenfranchised because of packages that are mailed late or whatever, then yes that's a problem. But that's not what I'm talking about here. Military/overseas absentee ballots often go uncounted not because their votes don't count or because they are actively being disenfranchised, but because the race is wide enough to already have been decided no matter what the absentee vote looks like.
    Are you aware that in most elections, absentee ballots make up from 20-30% of the votes? I would hardly call that "insignificant". Absentee ballots also make up roughly 90% of US military voting, since very rarely are we ever stationed in our home state on election day. In fact, I have only been able to vote for President in person 2 times while in the Military (1984, 1992). Every other time I have been either in another state (North Carolina, Texas) or overseas (Japan, Middle East) so had to vote by mail. Most people are never lucky enough to be stationed in their home state.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

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    Re: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

    If it was my vote I would say who cares? If the candidate is leading by 50,000 votes and there are only 1,500 mail-in ballots that haven't been counted, the tally of the mail-in ballots can't possibly change the outcome.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

  9. #259
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    Re: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    Well, what would you say if this is your vote? That you know that voting really does not matter, because even if you get your ballot in time to return it, odds are it still will not even be counted?

    And that this is a problem that has existed for decades?
    You're once again missing the point. It's not that my vote doesn't count. It's that it is not NECESSARY to count my vote because the race has already mathematically been decided, and the outcome can't be changed no matter what the absentee vote split is.

    If Candidate A has 90,000 votes, and Candidate B has 10,000, and we know that there are a possible total of 20,000 absentee votes, then it is not necessary to tally those 20,000 because it simply doesn't change the outcome. It's a matter of simple math.

    Actually, most times they are counted early in the morning on the day of the election. This is what the initial projections are made from, since these are the first votes tabulated. In fact, a great many times these "initial projections" (which you see on TV projection maps within an hour of polls opening) are based purely on absentee ballots are taken with a slight grain of salt, because most of them are from the elderly, a group that is more Conservative then most other groups.

    This is why the California ruleing was such a big deal. These ballots need to be turned in normally a week prior to General Voting, so they can all be checked and recorded.
    I didn't know about that, do you have a source for it? What I understand is what I stated above - absentee ballots often aren't counted if it's impossible for them to swing a particular race - if the race is close, then it's another matter.


    Are you aware that in most elections, absentee ballots make up from 20-30% of the votes? I would hardly call that "insignificant". Absentee ballots also make up roughly 90% of US military voting, since very rarely are we ever stationed in our home state on election day. In fact, I have only been able to vote for President in person 2 times while in the Military (1984, 1992). Every other time I have been either in another state (North Carolina, Texas) or overseas (Japan, Middle East) so had to vote by mail. Most people are never lucky enough to be stationed in their home state.
    Which elections are we talking about? State, local, federal? And obviously it depends on the particular race in question - I never said that this is universal. Like I said, I've heard of cases where absentee votes are left uncounted because it simply doesn't matter as the race has already been decided.

    Now if you're talking about military votes not being counted or tallied when they should be, then that's another matter.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 06-11-12 at 04:33 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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    Re: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    So you think that everyone in America who is over 90 should be forced to attend a hearing to prove they're still alive? WTF?!
    The story does not tell the whole truth, as it is not attend a hearing AND supply information, it is supply requested information OR request a hearing within thirty days. I am sure, that as a former military member, he has ample documentaton to supply. I agree that simply sending out "random" requests would be seen as simple harrassment, but many requests for federal database access have been denied so FL is doing what it can on its own. Perhaps rather than try to prevent FL from purging "valid" voters the DOJ could help FL to identify them more efficiently. ;-)
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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