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Thread: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

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    Re: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Certainly taking on may other things to voter ID could be cumbersome but it should also be a matter of pride to vote and to protect the system, just as it is in most every country where people have that fought for privilege. Recall the Iraqi people risking their lives to vote and then proudly holding up their purple stained fingers to show they had done so?
    I don't really see how that is relevant. Sure, people should jump through all the hoops, but obviously most won't. If it just rains, turnout drops off like 50%. Can you imagine what it will do to turnout in groups that would need to spend a day at the DMV before they could vote? You can't let politicians manipulate outcomes like that any more than you could let politicians say that, for example, voting will only be open from 2pm to 3pm in Republican districts, but from 7am to 10pm in Democratic districts. Sure, in theory, people should be so amped up about voting that they would make sure to get there between 2 and 3. But in reality, it would just be rigging the elections to ensure a victory for the Democrats. Democracy isn't working at that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Whether the problem is many or few the integrity of the system should be protected 100%, and there is no rational argument why this shouldn't be so. That's probably why the debate will continue.
    Well, we need to calculate which is the bigger threat to the integrity of the system. Some of these voter ID laws would prevent up to 10% of the population from voting. The very highest estimates I've ever seen from any study suggest that maybe as many as 0.1% of people voting aren't legally authorized to. And those estimates are from far right sources. And, it is worth noting that the vast majority of those who aren't legally authorized to be voting are people who are voting at the wrong polling place- they thought they could just vote at any of them, so they voted at the one near their work or whatever. In those cases, the vote isn't actually counted. They (at least in most states) can cast a provisional ballot and if the election is close enough for it to matter, election workers look to see what the problem is, figure out they were in the wrong place, and dump it.

    So, you've got one option that corrupts the outcome by up to 10% and another that corrupts it by less than 0.1%. Seems pretty clear which option is a bigger threat to the integrity of the system, no?
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I don't really see how that is relevant. Sure, people should jump through all the hoops, but obviously most won't. If it just rains, turnout drops off like 50%. Can you imagine what it will do to turnout in groups that would need to spend a day at the DMV before they could vote? You can't let politicians manipulate outcomes like that any more than you could let politicians say that, for example, voting will only be open from 2pm to 3pm in Republican districts, but from 7am to 10pm in Democratic districts. Sure, in theory, people should be so amped up about voting that they would make sure to get there between 2 and 3. But in reality, it would just be rigging the elections to ensure a victory for the Democrats. Democracy isn't working at that point.
    So voter ID is useless because it might rain or the voting hours might change? There seems to be a clear disconnect here.


    Well, we need to calculate which is the bigger threat to the integrity of the system. Some of these voter ID laws would prevent up to 10% of the population from voting.
    That's quite a few people. How can this be possible?

    The very highest estimates I've ever seen from any study suggest that maybe as many as 0.1% of people voting aren't legally authorized to. And those estimates are from far right sources.
    It is more important that these numbers are accurate or inaccurate, rather than your summation of the source.
    And, it is worth noting that the vast majority of those who aren't legally authorized to be voting are people who are voting at the wrong polling place- they thought they could just vote at any of them, so they voted at the one near their work or whatever. In those cases, the vote isn't actually counted. They (at least in most states) can cast a provisional ballot and if the election is close enough for it to matter, election workers look to see what the problem is, figure out they were in the wrong place, and dump it.
    Perhaps this is a problem that might be overcome in another way but it appears to be a separate issue.

    So, you've got one option that corrupts the outcome by up to 10% and another that corrupts it by less than 0.1%. Seems pretty clear which option is a bigger threat to the integrity of the system, no?
    How is voter ID corrupting the system when it isn't in effect? Do you have links to support your assertions?

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    Re: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    So voter ID is useless because it might rain or the voting hours might change? There seems to be a clear disconnect here.
    Not sure what you mean. I'm saying that errecting barriers to people voting has a huge impact on election results. If you elect barriers to some folks- people that don't currently have the right kind of ID- but not others, then you are corrupting the result of the election. Whether in theory people ought to just push through those barriers or not isn't the issue, the issue is how severely that measure will skew the election results. I'm using the rain example to show that even relatively small barriers do in fact dramatically skew election results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    That's quite a few people. How can this be possible?
    Well, for example, I would not currently be able to vote if my state adopted the strictest of the voter ID laws unless I went and got a new ID. I have several valid photo IDs- a passport, a driver's license from the state I lived in before entering law school, and a student ID. But, many of the laws only accept IDs issued by the state in which you would be voting, and since I'm not driving while I'm at school here, I didn't get a driver's license here.

    Likewise, my grandmother could not vote with her current ID in some of the states. She has a passport as well and a Medicare card, but her driver's license was allowed to expire a few years ago since she is too old to drive.

    The biggest category of people whose IDs wouldn't allow them to vote are people who move more frequently. Very few people update the addresses on their IDs right away every time they move houses. So, young people very often have previous addresses on their IDs. Many of the laws exclude IDs that don't have a current address.

    So, those are three big categories of people that get hit hard by the worst of the voter ID laws- students, the eldery and young people. Other categories are people in the military, people in cities where you can get by without a car, and the poor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    It is more important that these numbers are accurate or inaccurate, rather than your summation of the source.
    I'm not sure what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    How is voter ID corrupting the system when it isn't in effect? Do you have links to support your assertions?
    Again, it is corrupting the system by suppressing the votes of up to 10% of the population. That is a massive corruption of the system on par with the Jim Crow days. Excluding one person from voting who is a legal voter is exactly as bad as one person who isn't a legal voter voting. Either way, you're cheating the result by one vote.
    Last edited by teamosil; 06-03-12 at 07:05 PM.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

    The real crux of this boils down to this:

    About 58 percent of those flagged as potential noncitizens are Hispanics, Florida’s largest ethnic immigrant population, a Miami Herald analysis found. Hispanics make up 13 percent of the overall 11.3 million active registered voters.

    Independent voters and Democrats are the most likely to face being purged from the rolls. Republicans and non-Hispanic whites are the least likely.


    DOJ Sends Letter to Florida Demanding It Sotp Non-Citizen Voter Purge | TheBlaze.com

    My God liberals are transparent in their intent....

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    Re: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    The real crux of this boils down to this:




    My God liberals are transparent in their intent....

    j-mac
    Uh, it's Republicans that did this kiddo. You seem to be getting mixed up somewhere.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Uh, it's Republicans that did this kiddo. You seem to be getting mixed up somewhere.

    Nope, I am clear....Are you?


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    Re: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Uh, it's Republicans that did this kiddo. You seem to be getting mixed up somewhere.

    Nope, I am clear....Are you?


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Wanta bet on it? Florida has already shown a propensity to disenfranchise voters in past elections, why should it be expected to change for the next one?
    Your opinion nothing more
    The question is more important than the answer!

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    Re: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    No it doesn't, but all the party cares about is that the process will likely take more than 5 months. After which point, it won't matter because the election will be over.
    Your assuming its a automatic removal instead of a process and investigation, then a removal.
    The question is more important than the answer!

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    Re: Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Nope, I am clear....Are you?
    So your position is that the Democrats somehow got the Republicans to do it? Or what?
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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