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Thread: Massive cyber attack on Iran came from U.S., report says

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    Re: Massive cyber attack on Iran came from U.S., report says

    Charles J. Dunlap Jr., a former U.S. Air Force judge advocate general, when interviewed by American Bar Journal stated, "Even if Stuxnet amounts to a “use of force,” it doesn’t necessarily rise to a casus belli".

    Cyberattacks: Computer Warfare Looms as Next Big Conflict in International Law - Magazine - ABA Journal






    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Law professor and retired general Charles Dunlap thinks this attack on the infrastructure of a sovereign country is outside international law and the UN Charter.
    Also he states that spying is not considered an attack, unlike this action which causes destruction of infrastructure and possibly deaths.

    Legal Consequences Of A Cyber-Attack | PRI's The World
    The question and answer was of a more general nature than Stuxnet and precisely,

    "Schachter: General Dunlap, is there any black and white at all? Mean, a cyber attack leads to people dying or poisoning of water systems or something like that. Is that a case of black-and-white, damage has been done, act of war?

    Dunlap: In my judgment, that would be a use of force clearly in violation of the U.N. Charter. I think it’s very clear that when you have physical destruction and the direct consequences result in the deaths of people, that you are into the traditional analysis that would authorize the use of force in response."


    Cat, you misquoted Dunlap, also, did Stuxnet cause people to die and poison water systems? If not, then kindly be more accurate when referencing your position papers and refrain from spinning the information. Thank you.
    Last edited by Connery; 06-06-12 at 12:40 PM.

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    Re: Massive cyber attack on Iran came from U.S., report says

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    The illegality of it is not a problem?
    If this is illegal, and a more traditional attack with bombs and soldiers and guns is not, then I think we have our priorities backwards. I don't necessarily see this cyber attack as okay... just more okay than the alternative. It was specifically targeted at Iran's means of making weapons, right? Not at their water supply, not at their hospitals, schools, or roads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    The question and answer was of a more general nature than Stuxnet and precisely,

    "Schachter: General Dunlap, is there any black and white at all? Mean, a cyber attack leads to people dying or poisoning of water systems or something like that. Is that a case of black-and-white, damage has been done, act of war?

    Dunlap: In my judgment, that would be a use of force clearly in violation of the U.N. Charter. I think it’s very clear that when you have physical destruction and the direct consequences result in the deaths of people, that you are into the traditional analysis that would authorize the use of force in response."
    This illustrates the difference pretty clearly, to me. This attack did not kill anyone, did not damage the ability of otherwise innocent Iranian people to live their lives. There will be no dead children in the streets. How could this not be better than what we've done in Iraq or Afghanistan? Or in war for thousands of years? The less bloodshed, the better, and this has, as far as I know, shed no blood.
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    Re: Massive cyber attack on Iran came from U.S., report says

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    Charles J. Dunlap Jr., a former U.S. Air Force judge advocate general, when interviewed by American Bar Journal stated, "Even if Stuxnet amounts to a “use of force,” it doesn’t necessarily rise to a casus belli".
    Not exactly a ringing endorsement is it?
    Last edited by Catawba; 06-06-12 at 03:15 PM.
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    Re: Massive cyber attack on Iran came from U.S., report says

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    If this is illegal, and a more traditional attack with bombs and soldiers and guns is not, then I think we have our priorities backwards. I don't necessarily see this cyber attack as okay... just more okay than the alternative. It was specifically targeted at Iran's means of making weapons, right? Not at their water supply, not at their hospitals, schools, or roads.



    This illustrates the difference pretty clearly, to me. This attack did not kill anyone, did not damage the ability of otherwise innocent Iranian people to live their lives. There will be no dead children in the streets. How could this not be better than what we've done in Iraq or Afghanistan? Or in war for thousands of years? The less bloodshed, the better, and this has, as far as I know, shed no blood.

    If this attack of questionable legal status leads to retaliation that results in deaths, I would say it is not so harmless.
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    Re: Massive cyber attack on Iran came from U.S., report says

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Not exactly a ringing endorsement is it?
    Do you even understand what Dunlap said?
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    Re: Massive cyber attack on Iran came from U.S., report says

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Do you even understand what Dunlap said?
    Yes, he said, "it doesn’t necessarily rise to a casus belli". That is not exactly a ringing endorsement is it?
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    Re: Massive cyber attack on Iran came from U.S., report says

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Not exactly a ringing endorsement is it?
    He applied the facts to the law and rendered an opinion, that is his purpose as an attorney. Should he have placed a value judgment such as an endorsement or rejection on the issue his opinion would have been attenuated by his bias.

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    Re: Massive cyber attack on Iran came from U.S., report says

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    He applied the facts to the law and rendered an opinion, that is his purpose as an attorney. Should he have placed a value judgment such as an endorsement or rejection on the issue his opinion would have been attenuated by his bias.

    .....................
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    Re: Massive cyber attack on Iran came from U.S., report says

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    If this attack of questionable legal status leads to retaliation that results in deaths, I would say it is not so harmless.
    Are you suggesting that a conventional attack, and the aforementioned retaliation, with death and destruction in both instances, is better?

    And I really don't understand this notion about the "legality" of attacking another country. Making war is a crime. Always. But if you win, then no one is around to punish you for it. Rebelling against England was a crime. Invading Poland was a crime. Destroying the WTC was a crime. Invading Iraq was a crime. This was a crime, too. The only difference lies in who won the conflict. It's only a crime if you lose. So, why does the "legality" of this act make a difference? The only reason why this would a crime and shooting and bombing people wouldn't be is because mass murder of innocent civilians is the traditional way to make war. It's relatively safe for those in power, while these cyber attacks are a wild card that could threaten the powerful, and not just kill the children of regular people.

    So again, why should this be illegal and bombing a hospital legal?
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    Re: Massive cyber attack on Iran came from U.S., report says

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Are you suggesting that a conventional attack, and the aforementioned retaliation, with death and destruction in both instances, is better?

    And I really don't understand this notion about the "legality" of attacking another country. Making war is a crime. Always. But if you win, then no one is around to punish you for it. Rebelling against England was a crime. Invading Poland was a crime. Destroying the WTC was a crime. Invading Iraq was a crime. This was a crime, too. The only difference lies in who won the conflict. It's only a crime if you lose. So, why does the "legality" of this act make a difference? The only reason why this would a crime and shooting and bombing people wouldn't be is because mass murder of innocent civilians is the traditional way to make war. It's relatively safe for those in power, while these cyber attacks are a wild card that could threaten the powerful, and not just kill the children of regular people.

    So again, why should this be illegal and bombing a hospital legal?

    No, I am suggesting that we should not attack others (in any manner) that are of no threat to us.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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