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Thread: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    There has to be a provable state interest in order to discriminate, there is no such interest with regards to SSM.
    How about the desire for sexual reproduction, clearly a state interest by increasing the population/tax base.
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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Except that there's functionally a huge difference. Rulings based on sex discrimination are more likely to stand, because sex is a suspect class. Rulings based on discrimination against homosexuality are far weaker, because homosexuality is not a suspect class.

    In order for rulings based on sex discrimination to hold, it must be successfully argued that gender isn't an inherent part of marriage.

    However, in order for rulings based on discrimination against homosexuality to stand, then it must be argued that sexuality and romantic love IS an inherent part of marriage, else there's no actual basis for claiming discrimination. This is not only harder to do than the above, but it also goes against many of the pro-SSM arguments.

    So yeah, the legal mechanics are totally different. That's why it's significant. All of this will play into a Supreme Court ruling, and the prevailing arguments have been the weaker arguments, legally speaking.
    Either way, at the end of the day, the point is they get to marry. And marry someone of the same gender. I think this distinction, however, is so basic that everyone understands it no matter which word you use.

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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    How about the desire for sexual reproduction, clearly a state interest by increasing the population/tax base.
    And allowing SSM won't decrease that, this is a horrible argument.

    And allowing SSM will increase the amount of families, so the state has an interest in allowing it.
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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    The constitution does not prevent all discrimination. It prevents discrimination without a compelling reason. Bigotry has failed time and again to be a compelling reason. Keeping children from crashing cars has. Lawmakers can discriminate all they like, completely constitutionally, so long as they can provide a compelling reason for doing so. In the case of something like SSM, no such compelling reason has been offered.
    What compelling reason allows for taxation without representation?
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    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    And allowing SSM won't decrease that, this is a horrible argument.

    And allowing SSM will increase the amount of families, so the state has an interest in allowing it.
    One could certainly argue that population growth slowing would be a benefit.
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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Either way, at the end of the day, the point is they get to marry. And marry someone of the same gender. I think this distinction, however, is so basic that everyone understands it no matter which word you use.
    If it prevails, then the immediate result is the same, but the precedents, and where they can go, are not.

    But as I said, the weaker arguments are the ones being used, and the Supreme Court is a very different place than a district court or a three-judge appeals court. This isn't about what "everyone udnerstands." It's about the law and how the law works.

    But my comment harkens back to other arguments had on this topic, with people who know that the argument concerning discrimination against homosexuality is the weaker argument, and because they know it's the weaker argument, they insist that the rulings have actually been about gender discrimination. But they haven't been, and neither is this one.
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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    For those who are interested, the opinion can be found at: http://www.ca1.uscourts.gov/pdf.opin...-2204P-01A.pdf

    My first read of the decision is that it is a strong one. It acknowledges that the argument for DOMA is largely one based on appeals to tradition. It also notes "this desire to maintain tradition would alone have been justification enough for almost any statute" but that "Supreme Court decisions in the last fifty years call for closer scrutiny of government action..."

    Tradition alone is insufficient basis when it comes to addressing issues related to equal treatment under the law. Had tradition, alone, prevailed many of the landmark decisions on civil rights, including but not limited to Brown v. Board of Education, would not have been possible. In that context, I fully expect that the decision will be upheld if the case is appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court.

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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    If it prevails, then the immediate result is the same, but the precedents, and where they can go, are not.

    But as I said, the weaker arguments are the ones being used, and the Supreme Court is a very different place than a district court or a three-judge appeals court. This isn't about what "everyone udnerstands." It's about the law and how the law works.

    But my comment harkens back to other arguments had on this topic, with people who know that the argument concerning discrimination against homosexuality is the weaker argument, and because they know it's the weaker argument, they insist that the rulings have actually been about gender discrimination. But they haven't been, and neither is this one.
    I could be wrong, but I think even lawyers and judges understand. The central premise, regardless of wording, is discrimination against homosexuals. No one I have ever talked to doesn't understand that.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    One could certainly argue that population growth slowing would be a benefit.
    But slowing population growth would not be a symptom of allowing LGBT members of society to marry.
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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    And allowing SSM won't decrease that, this is a horrible argument.

    And allowing SSM will increase the amount of families, so the state has an interest in allowing it.
    I disagree. The state bet is that by granting tax breaks to married couples that they will be more inclined to produce offspring, due to their improved financial status, giving those same incentives without any such exptected return is NOT in the state interest.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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