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Thread: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

  1. #181
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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    Then maybe it's time to scrap the old Constitution and write one where the invocation of MORALITY as the highest Legal determinator is more clearly defined.
    Yes we need more God in government just like it is in the Constitution. Oh wait.

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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    The part about "just changing race to gender" is why it fails. With respect to marriage, race is nothing but a surface characteristic. The same cannot be said of SSM - such relationships are more consequential to a marriage concept. This is not to say one way or the other whether SSM is deserving of Constitutional protection - just that those protections cannot be rationally deduced from Loving.
    From a legal standpoint, this is inacurate. Please list for me the differences in legal obligations between men and women in marriage.

    Loving determined marraige was a fundamental right and that 14th amendment protection followed. This is important. It is one of the reasons why DOMA and SSM bans are not doing at all well in the courts, which seems to be another reality you are trying to avoid.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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  3. #183
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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Not sure I follow. Whether or not something "furthers" a state interest does not invalidate it. A state interest does not imply that the state is obligated to do everything in its power to ensure that people who marry can reproduce.
    There is no part of same sex marriage being banned that furthers any state interest.

    But, if they are trying to say, for the sake of argument, that procreation is the state's interest in marriage, then they would have to show how they are furthering that state interest by not allowing same sex couples to legally marry but also how that state interest is still furthered by allowing opposite sex couples who cannot have children to enter into marriage. The reason that they would need to address this with such an argument, particularly the federal government and certain states, is because it shows a blatant bias against only those of the same sex not being allowed to marry due to procreation but no regard for those of the opposite sex who are allowed to marry despite not being able to procreate.

    I have addressed this several times in the past, but here it is again. There are certain states that allow first cousins to legally marry only if they cannot procreate with each other. They have to show proof that they are infertile or that the woman is over a certain age in order to be able to enter into a legal marriage. These are all recognized as legal marriages by the federal government. This alone shows that the federal government and at least some states cannot claim that procreation is the main state interest in marriage for them and that is why they are banning same sex marriage because they are legally saying the opposite for certain opposite sex couples.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #184
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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    I suppose the problem is that proponents haven't yet convinced enough people in most states to pass it into law. They were making good progress in winning public opinion, but seem to have put the car in reverse when the emphasis shifted from convincing their communities to convincing the courts.
    According to what are you basing this on? I hope you aren't basing it on referendums being put into place because that is seriously an uninformed thing to do.

    For one thing, many areas of the country have different beliefs. We know this. So trying to show how some states started legalizing same sex marriage and then others made sure that they set up bans against it only shows that some people were getting scared because they saw the support for same sex marriage rising.

    The problem the supporters of same sex marriage have is not increasing the support, it is getting people out to actually vote against laws banning same sex marriage. Actual support for same sex marriage is increasing and does not show any signs of stopping. In fact, it is showing signs of increasing more rapidly thanks to some celebrities and others publicly voicing their own support this last few months.

    Of course this doesn't matter when it comes to the fact that marrying someone of the same sex should be a right. Support for interracial marriage was less than 40% when Loving v VA ruled interracial marriage bans unconstitutional. In fact, Alabama couldn't get enough votes to take the ban itself off the books until 2000, and they did try. In 1998, they were still getting a majority voting for keeping it there.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by vendur View Post
    How about social security, which was based on the reproduction rates at the time of inception?
    Which has no need for marriage to increase. If pure reproduction rate alone is the interest, then they don't need marriage.

    Plus, since same sex couples can increase the birth rates through artificial means, surrogate mothers and sperm donors, not to mention adopting unwanted children, then they would in fact be contributing to that increase in population in a positive way and legal marriage would likely make same sex couples more willing to do these things if they know they will actually be legally treated as married opposite sex couples who use these same methods to get children in every state.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  6. #186
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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    The part about "just changing race to gender" is why it fails. With respect to marriage, race is nothing but a surface characteristic. The same cannot be said of SSM - such relationships are more consequential to a marriage concept. This is not to say one way or the other whether SSM is deserving of Constitutional protection - just that those protections cannot be rationally deduced from Loving.
    Gender is nothing but a surface characteristic when it comes to legal marriage. There is absolutely no part of any marriage laws in any state that require a couple to have children. In fact, the only laws concerning procreation when it comes to opposite couples being able to marry are just the opposite. They prevent certain couples from legally being able to marry if they can procreate.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    From a legal standpoint, this is inacurate. Please list for me the differences in legal obligations between men and women in marriage.

    Loving determined marraige was a fundamental right and that 14th amendment protection followed. This is important. It is one of the reasons why DOMA and SSM bans are not doing at all well in the courts, which seems to be another reality you are trying to avoid.
    Not sure what exactly you think is inaccurate. Loving did not determine that 14th amendment protections apply to people seeking SSM.

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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Not sure what exactly you think is inaccurate. Loving did not determine that 14th amendment protections apply to people seeking SSM.
    No. Loving set the basis that marriage was an actual right and that it fell under the protection of the 14th Amendment. It also established that just because the majority wants certain couples restricted from entering into legal marriage does not mean that, in itself, is a good enough reason to prevent those people from entering into marriage. The state has to abide by the EPC and prove that the restriction on marriage, based on sex, furthers a state interest, and since it is sex/gender that must be furthered, then it has to be an important government interest that is substantially related to that interest.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    From a legal standpoint, this is inacurate. Please list for me the differences in legal obligations between men and women in marriage.
    It's not at all inaccurate from a legal standpoint, and has nothing to do with legal obligations between men and women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Loving determined marraige was a fundamental right and that 14th amendment protection followed. This is important.
    Loving determined that the part of Virginia's Racial Integrity Act that criminalized marriage between whites and non whites violated the 14th amendment.

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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    It's not at all inaccurate from a legal standpoint, and has nothing to do with legal obligations between men and women.


    Loving determined that the part of Virginia's Racial Integrity Act that criminalized marriage between whites and non whites violated the 14th amendment.
    It won't be that hard to argue that the state has no role in trying to enforce gender roles. Arguing that non whites should not be allowed to marry whites is not really any different than arguing men can't marry men or women can't marry women. Sex is just as immutable as race.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    The economy will improve under this bill. If a few people die, it will be for the betterament of this country.

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