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Thread: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    I would add that gender is not a valid argument against discrimination either because both men and women are barred from marrying same gender. Now, if men were allowed to marry both women, and men, and women were only allowed to marry just men, then Walker would have been correct, but since both genders are equally discriminated against there is no 14th challenge in my opinion.

    Again the appeal brief is here: http://sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-con...ef-9-17-10.pdf


    Tim-
    Wait...so if other people are discriminated under the 14th, that makes all discrimination ok under the 14th? Do you realize how silly that is?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Yes, it is false. Did I say otherwise?

    When looking at the totality of the rulings about SSM, yes, they have. This ruling is only one.
    Well that is good, you don't even try and hide that you are moving the goalposts. Yes, when you look at rulings that are not part of this ruling, things are different. Thank you for clearing that up.

    No, the ruling was not based on that. The court said that discrimination against homosexual couples was equivalent to that, from a legal analysis perspective (i.e., the same rules apply), but they specifically did NOT rule based on gender discrimination. It was about homosexuality.
    From the ruling:

    The evidence shows that the tradition of restricting an
    individual’s choice of spouse based on gender does not rationally
    further a state interest despite its “ancient lineage.” Instead,
    the evidence shows that the tradition of gender restrictions arose
    when spouses were legally required to adhere to specific gender
    roles. See FF 26-27. California has eliminated all legallymandated
    gender roles except the requirement that a marriage
    consist of one man and one woman. FF 32. Proposition 8 thus
    enshrines in the California Constitution a gender restriction that
    the evidence shows to be nothing more than an artifact of a
    foregone notion that men and women fulfill different roles in civic
    life.
    That is far from the biggest part of the ruling and it is not the most important part, but it is there.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    There is a lack of evidence that polygamy relationships promote social stability or create good environments for raising children, and there is some evidence that in fact polygamy is harmful.
    And what evidence or statistics are available with regards to SSM (and single parent) relationships for raising children? We do not always consider these factors it seems.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Then what compelling state interest is served by giving tax breaks to the married? Does that then not amount to simple discrimination against the non-married, if no compelling state interest is served by that discrimination? What compelling state interest is served by the taxation of those too young to vote (taxation w/o representation)?
    Married people tend to have more disposable income which can be funnelled into the economy. They are more likely to own homes, own multiple vehicles, etc. They are traditionally more likely to have children. They are also willing to legally entangle their financial lives together, resulting in more long-term financial stability.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Well that is good, you don't even try and hide that you are moving the goalposts. Yes, when you look at rulings that are not part of this ruling, things are different. Thank you for clearing that up.
    What "goalpost"? It appears you simply misread me.




    That is far from the biggest part of the ruling and it is not the most important part, but it is there.
    It's dicta. It is not part of the actual ruling. It's part of the discussion of the background.

    Here's the actual determination of the question in the case:

    Having considered the evidence, the
    relationship between sex and sexual orientation and the fact that
    Proposition 8 eliminates a right only a gay man or a lesbian would
    exercise, the court determines that plaintiffs’ equal protection
    claim is based on sexual orientation
    , but this claim is equivalent
    to a claim of discrimination based on sex.
    And here is the actual ruling:

    Proposition 8 fails to advance any rational basis in
    singling out gay men and lesbians for denial of a marriage license.
    Indeed, the evidence shows Proposition 8 does nothing more than
    enshrine in the California Constitution the notion that oppositesex
    couples are superior to same-sex couples. Because California
    has no interest in discriminating against gay men and lesbians, and
    because Proposition 8 prevents California from fulfilling its
    constitutional obligation to provide marriages on an equal basis,
    the court concludes that Proposition 8 is unconstitutional.
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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Wait...so if other people are discriminated under the 14th, that makes all discrimination ok under the 14th? Do you realize how silly that is?
    Pay attention, redress. It was a valid attempt by you but you missed it as usual. In order for a 14th challenge to carry weight constitutionally, it must have distinguishing characteristics. A man marrying a woman and a man would be distingusinable from a man that can only marry a woman, and a woman that can only marry a man. If both women and men are barred EQUALLY from marrying their same gender, then there is no gender discrimination. Please articulate how having both men and women being barred from marrying their own gender is gender discrimination WITHOUT referencing sexuality as the root..

    You can't.. And neither could Walker, but please do try.


    Tim-
    Last edited by Hicup; 05-31-12 at 03:42 PM.
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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    If both women and men are barred EQUALLY from marrying their same gender, then there is no gender discrimination.
    Tim-
    No, there is still gender discrimination because women are still unable to do something men can do and men are still unable to do something women can do. They are equivalently discriminated against.

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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    And what evidence or statistics are available with regards to SSM (and single parent) relationships for raising children? We do not always consider these factors it seems.
    Single parent is entirely different from SSM couples, and there is a plethora of evidence. Just one example: Study: Same-Sex Parents Raise Well-Adjusted Kids
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    No, there is still gender discrimination because women are still unable to do something men can do and men are still unable to do something women can do. They are equivalently discriminated against.
    Yes, AND society has within its power to regulate that as long as there are no distinguishable characteristics where one party is disadvantaged from the other.


    Tim-
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    Re: Court: Heart of gay marriage law unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Pay attention, redress. It was a valid attempt by you but you missed it as usual. In order for a 14th challenge to carry weight constitutionally, it must have distinguishing characteristics. A man marrying a woman and a man would be distingusinable from a man that can only marry a woman, and a woman that can only marry a man. If both women and men are barred EQUALLY from marrying their same gender, then there is no gender discrimination. Please articulate how having both men and women being barred from marrying their own gender is gender discrimination WITHOUT referencing sexuality as the root..

    You can't.. And neither could Walker, but please do try.


    Tim-
    Except it does not work that way.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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