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Thread: 22 states, including Kentucky, join campaign finance fight

  1. #11
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    Re: 22 states, including Kentucky, join campaign finance fight

    "A corporation using corporate funds to pay for political speech does not necessarily allow for the views of individuals working for the same corporation."

    True enough. When I worked in city government I had to join the union. I had to pay union dues. The union, in turn, gave vast sums of money to political campaigns that I strongly disagreed with. Is that the same? Or is that different?

    Americans must pay taxes (well, half of us must). A significant portion of those taxes must go to public employees. Public employees must pay union dues. Unions must use that money to support liberal politics. Following the money, that means all taxpayers must provide financial support to liberal causes. Is that fair?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for election finance reform. Our political system shouldn't be up for grabs to the highest bidder. My problem is with the folks who only want to reform one side of the equation.

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    Re: 22 states, including Kentucky, join campaign finance fight

    Quote Originally Posted by Aberration View Post
    Let me know when you have to pay for it.
    Mass media advertising is NOT free and never has been. While what you say is free, getting it said is not. ;-)
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: 22 states, including Kentucky, join campaign finance fight

    Quote Originally Posted by GJ Flash View Post
    "A corporation using corporate funds to pay for political speech does not necessarily allow for the views of individuals working for the same corporation."

    True enough. When I worked in city government I had to join the union. I had to pay union dues. The union, in turn, gave vast sums of money to political campaigns that I strongly disagreed with. Is that the same? Or is that different?

    Americans must pay taxes (well, half of us must). A significant portion of those taxes must go to public employees. Public employees must pay union dues. Unions must use that money to support liberal politics. Following the money, that means all taxpayers must provide financial support to liberal causes. Is that fair?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for election finance reform. Our political system shouldn't be up for grabs to the highest bidder. My problem is with the folks who only want to reform one side of the equation.
    That makes little sense since any restrictions or limits give an advantage to only the incumbent who is free, as Obama now is, to campaign on the public dime, since their time as well as travel expenses are covered. Also what they say is 'news', by defintion, and they get much more free press. The challenger always has the greater 'non-public' expense.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: 22 states, including Kentucky, join campaign finance fight

    Our political system is set up to keep rich rich and those in power in power. The sad reality is in the majority of elections the person who spends the most wins. So in order to get the money they need to win the spending war to stay in office they have to cater to the rich and corporations who can put up the money to keep them there. The way our system is set up is not for the betterment of our country or of our people it is set up to keep getting elected. That leaves us with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    that the billionaires and the corporations they control have more 'speech' than ordinary citizens.
    Given the options to work with the interest of a billionaire or 1000 people who cant afford to donate, a politician is going to do what the billionaire wants. He knows that with the billionaires money he can run a few ads and get those 1000 others to fall in line.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
    Stephen R. Covey


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    Re: 22 states, including Kentucky, join campaign finance fight

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    The first word you use in your comment is the problem: - "IF money is considered speech"

    How has money become equivalent to speech?
    Money pays for faxes,letters, signs,phone calls, ads, and many other things which are speech. To limit money therefore cash would to limit speech.

    To accept this premise is to accept that the billionaires and the corporations they control have more 'speech' than ordinary citizens. This fits the definition of oligarchy quite well. The right to free speech counts for nothing if no one can hear what you say.
    There is no limit to how much you can exercise your first amendment rights nor is there a one at a time clause in the first amendment.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: 22 states, including Kentucky, join campaign finance fight

    I'll care when they manage to find some way to iron out the blatant biases in the media coverage and make sure to apply any restrictions on corporations equally to labor unions.

    'Till then, do I really give a rat's ass that some corporations can spend a bunch of money on ads or whatever when currently most of the media(which corporations also own) is a 24-7 propaganda outfit for the democrats?

  7. #17
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    Re: 22 states, including Kentucky, join campaign finance fight

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Corporations just like NRA,GOA, planned parenthood, churches,unions, GLAAD and other group are an assembly of persons.That assembly of people are entitled to their other constitutional rights ,just like a church, unions, GLAAD, NRA, GOA, or any other group of people are entitled to exercise their other constitutional rights.
    Is that right? So, for example, I can vote, and I can form a politics club with a couple friends, and our club can also vote. And of course my company can vote. And then I can form a couple of associations and those associations can all vote....

    Is that how it works?
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: 22 states, including Kentucky, join campaign finance fight

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Is that right? So, for example, I can vote, and I can form a politics club with a couple friends, and our club can also vote. And of course my company can vote. And then I can form a couple of associations and those associations can all vote....

    Is that how it works?
    Is voting a unlimited right? Its mentioned specifically as a right 5 times in the bill of rights but every time its to practically list what you can not use as a restriction.



    14th Amendment (1868): Regarding apportionment of Representatives.

    15th Amendment (1870): "The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude."

    19th Amendment (1920): "The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex."

    23rd Amendment (1961): provides that residents of the District of Columbia can vote for the President and Vice-President.

    24th Amendment (1964): "The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax."

    26th Amendment (1971): "The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age."
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  9. #19
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    Re: 22 states, including Kentucky, join campaign finance fight

    Quote Originally Posted by vendur View Post
    I'll care when they manage to find some way to iron out the blatant biases in the media coverage and make sure to apply any restrictions on corporations equally to labor unions.

    'Till then, do I really give a rat's ass that some corporations can spend a bunch of money on ads or whatever when currently most of the media(which corporations also own) is a 24-7 propaganda outfit for the democrats?
    those 'restrictions' on corporations DO apply to unions.

    The perception of "blatant bias in the media" is more often in the brain of the reader/viewer than in it is in the real world. A Pew study found more negative coverage of the President than on the GOP in this election cycle.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: 22 states, including Kentucky, join campaign finance fight

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    those 'restrictions' on corporations DO apply to unions.

    The perception of "blatant bias in the media" is more often in the brain of the reader/viewer than in it is in the real world. A Pew study found more negative coverage of the President than on the GOP in this election cycle.
    Oh, it's much more profound than just hard news. Still, the hard news is that Obama is a terrible president, essentially. You can only candy coat things so much.. You can dip it in some chocolate and put some whip cream on top with some sprinkles, but a turd is still a turd. It could also be the left is as disappointed in him as anyone else. He basically has been the third term of GWB, including his penchant for passing unconstitutional laws.

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