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Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

You feel that figures from 1990 and a personal anecdote are more accurate concerning increased membership in the Catholic Church than the figures of last year?

You must be a Barrack Obama supporter.

I think how you measure it matters. But post some numbers and I'll look at it. But did you look at what I posted. Just glancing I see 2004.
 
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They wouldn't be paying for it, the insurance would. Insurance doesn't really work the way most seem to think it does. In fact, it is even likely that they could find insurance policies for less that actually included BC than finding them for more since the insurance companies probably would rather spend the money for BC than spend the money for babies.


Tell us how it works then? Going by what has been given fact, many of the institutions that are suing are self insured....You do understand that right?


j-mac
 
Tell us how it works then? Going by what has been given fact, many of the institutions that are suing are self insured....You do understand that right?


j-mac

Yes. But the insurance belongs to the employee. It would be like telling the person what they can buy with their paycheck. Do you support the church doing that?
 
Tell us how it works then? Going by what has been given fact, many of the institutions that are suing are self insured....You do understand that right?

j-mac

Then they are not very good at business to begin with. And not very charitable to their employees either. Because either they are going to pay more for those babies being born, which means more money needs to come into them, likely in the form of higher premiums, in order to pay for those extra babies that might have been prevented due to BC, or they are forcing their employees to pay for their BC due to those who run the institutions' individual religious beliefs with no regard to how their employees feel about those beliefs. Of course it is likely both things are happening.

Insurance should have nothing to do with religion. If they are self-insured, it is highly likely that they have to be that way because they couldn't find an insurance plan that considered it even close to a good idea to not pay for contraceptives. And that would be because it is more expensive for people on insurance to be having babies than it is to cover prevention methods.

Honestly, I'd just prefer that we have a National Healthcare System and your taxes go to paying for anyone who wants it to have birth control methods completely covered. Then the Catholics and anyone else who disapproves of BC would absolutely be paying for it.
 
Yes. But the insurance belongs to the employee. It would be like telling the person what they can buy with their paycheck. Do you support the church doing that?

Who buys the plan? Who decides what is covered in the plan? The employee, or the employer?

j-mac
 
Then they are not very good at business to begin with. And not very charitable to their employees either. Because either they are going to pay more for those babies being born, which means more money needs to come into them, likely in the form of higher premiums, in order to pay for those extra babies that might have been prevented due to BC, or they are forcing their employees to pay for their BC due to those who run the institutions' individual religious beliefs with no regard to how their employees feel about those beliefs. Of course it is likely both things are happening.

Insurance should have nothing to do with religion. If they are self-insured, it is highly likely that they have to be that way because they couldn't find an insurance plan that considered it even close to a good idea to not pay for contraceptives. And that would be because it is more expensive for people on insurance to be having babies than it is to cover prevention methods.

Honestly, I'd just prefer that we have a National Healthcare System and your taxes go to paying for anyone who wants it to have birth control methods completely covered. Then the Catholics and anyone else who disapproves of BC would absolutely be paying for it.


You speak as though you think that you own the job you have? Oh, and BTW, I note that you are against religious freedom.

j-mac
 
You speak as though you think that you own the job you have? Oh, and BTW, I note that you are against religious freedom.

j-mac

I'm against the religious, particularly the churches, forcing their religious beliefs on their employees just because they work for them. That is wrong. And it is not very Christian of them. I'm pretty sure God could care less if they offered to pay for contraceptives through insurance policies, particularly when it would likely give everyone more money to give.
 
I'm against the religious, particularly the churches, forcing their religious beliefs on their employees just because they work for them. That is wrong. And it is not very Christian of them. I'm pretty sure God could care less if they offered to pay for contraceptives through insurance policies, particularly when it would likely give everyone more money to give.


BWHAAAAAA! You're pretty sure you know what God would want the church to do? That is funny....give me a break....

So now address the first part of my post if you would be so kind...


j-mac
 
Who buys the plan? Who decides what is covered in the plan? The employee, or the employer?

j-mac

Same person who pays me the salary. That doesn't give them control over either when it is compensation for the work done. This is fndamental. Do you want them controlling what YOU do with YOUR compensation? If you do, you'll need to ask their permission when you buy things. It must be approved by them.
 
Same person who pays me the salary. That doesn't give them control over either when it is compensation for the work done. This is fndamental. Do you want them controlling what YOU do with YOUR compensation? If you do, you'll need to ask their permission when you buy things. It must be approved by them.


Ok, I think I see the disconnect here. Listen, the employer buys the insurance plan as a benefit, or incitement to work for a specific employer. That means that the coverages of that plan, in relation to cost, coverage limits, procedures are all decided by the employer before you are offered a particular benefit coverage. It is not required that an employer offer you any coverage at all, you realize this right?

Anyway, that you agree to work for someone, doesn't give you the right, nor ability to dictate what it is the terms of that employment that any employer must give to you upon acceptance over what they, and you have agreed to upon initial employment. If you don't like the terms of employment, or level of benefits, then BUY YOUR OWN!, or find a different job.

This idea that once you get hired, you somehow "own" the job, and the employer has some sort of social responsibility to give you what you want is laughable...


j-mac
 
Bottom line, if Catholics and Conservatives dont want insurance to cover Birth Control, or are against low cost clinics providing Birth Control, they cant bitch about Abortion.

Telling people to "shut their legs" (or put an aspirin between their knees :roll:), or to keep their "pecker in their pants", isn't going to prevent pregnancy or reduce abortion.

And when these same people start a fuss over viagra being covered by insurance, I might take them 1/3 serious. A limp dick must suck, but sex is not something a man NEEDS to have. :shrug: Just sayin'
 
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FFS.

Wouldn't the simple solution be for the employer not to provide health coverage?
 
Bottom line, if Catholics and Conservatives dont want insurance to cover Birth Control, or are against support low cost clinics providing Birth Control, they cant bitch about Abortion.

Telling people to "shut their legs" (or put an aspirin between their knees :roll:), or to keep their "pecker in their pants", isn't going to prevent pregnancy or reduce abortion.

And when these same people start a fuss over viagra being covered by insurance, I might take them 1/3 serious. A limp dick must suck, but sex is not something a man NEEDS to have. :shrug: Just sayin'

Why can't we bitch about abortion? The pill and condoms have shown to be just as ineffective, while supporting unhealthy social behavior. While abstinence is always 100% effective when actually done, and it supports healthy social behavior.
 
Why can't we bitch about abortion? The pill and condoms have shown to be just as ineffective, while supporting unhealthy social behavior. While abstinence is always 100% effective when actually done, and it supports healthy social behavior.

Do you HONESTLY think Christians will support abstinence when procreation is something they stand on? Do you honestly believe every American will practice abstinence? lol come on now! That's going to be about as effective as telling people to "be responsible". They're nice ideas...but far from reasonable.

The answer is not to END all abortion, the logical solution is to REDUCE abortion...that can be accomplished by contraception.
 
Do you HONESTLY think Christians will support abstinence when procreation is something they stand on? Do you honestly believe every American will practice abstinence? lol come on now! That's going to be about as effective as telling people to "be responsible". They're nice ideas...but far from reasonable.

The answer is not to END all abortion, the logical solution is to REDUCE abortion...that can be accomplished by contraception.

How is contraception the answer when it has been so ineffective?

Do you HONESTLY think everyone will use it? Don't people need to be responsible then? Its a nice idea, buy far from reasonable.

It is not YOUR answer. It is not logical to YOU. It seems plenty logical to me, considering how much effort has been put in to push the notion of safe sex and how ineffective it has been.
 
How is contraception the answer when it has been so ineffective?

Do you HONESTLY think everyone will use it? Don't people need to be responsible then? Its a nice idea, buy far from reasonable.

It is not YOUR answer. It is not logical to YOU. It seems plenty logical to me, considering how much effort has been put in to push the notion of safe sex and how ineffective it has been.

...Uh...I suppose you have pertinent data to back up the "Ineffective" claim, though I doubt it:

"Contraception

In the United States, almost half of all pregnancies are unintended.1 Yet, several safe and highly effective methods of contraception (birth control) are available to prevent unintended pregnancy. Since 2000, several new methods of birth control have become available in the United States, including the levonorgestrel-releasing intrauterine system, the hormonal contraceptive patch, the hormonal contraceptive ring, the hormonal implant, a 91-day regimen of oral contraceptives, two new barrier methods, and a new form of female sterilization. Learn more about the types of birth control available.

Most women of reproductive age in the United States use birth control. Between 2006–2008, 99% of women who had ever had sexual intercourse had used at least one method of birth control; however, 7.3% of women who were currently at risk of unintended pregnancy were not using a contraceptive method.2 The most popular method of birth control was the oral contraceptive pill, used by 10.7 million women in the United States, followed by female sterilization, condoms, male sterilization, and other methods of birth control.2 Approximately 10% of women had ever used emergency contraception."

CDC - Contraception - Reproductive Health
"http://www.plannedparenthood.org/images/effchartimages/bcc_06.jpg

bcc_15_Over.jpg
 
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...Uh...I suppose you have pertinent data to back up the "Ineffective" claim, though I doubt it:

"Contraception

In the United States, almost half of all pregnancies are unintended.1 Yet, several safe and highly effective methods of contraception (birth control) are available to prevent unintended pregnancy. Since 2000, several new methods of birth control have become available in the United States, including the levonorgestrel-releasing intrauterine system, the hormonal contraceptive patch, the hormonal contraceptive ring, the hormonal implant, a 91-day regimen of oral contraceptives, two new barrier methods, and a new form of female sterilization. Learn more about the types of birth control available.

Most women of reproductive age in the United States use birth control. Between 2006–2008, 99% of women who had ever had sexual intercourse had used at least one method of birth control; however, 7.3% of women who were currently at risk of unintended pregnancy were not using a contraceptive method.2 The most popular method of birth control was the oral contraceptive pill, used by 10.7 million women in the United States, followed by female sterilization, condoms, male sterilization, and other methods of birth control.2 Approximately 10% of women had ever used emergency contraception."

CDC - Contraception - Reproductive Health
"http://www.plannedparenthood.org/images/effchartimages/bcc_06.jpg

View attachment 67128418

You suppose I have pertinent data, but then you doubt it...

Since you doubt it, before we even engage in conversation, there is no point in involving you in the conversation. No point in me trying work through your bias.
 
Ok, I think I see the disconnect here. Listen, the employer buys the insurance plan as a benefit, or incitement to work for a specific employer. That means that the coverages of that plan, in relation to cost, coverage limits, procedures are all decided by the employer before you are offered a particular benefit coverage. It is not required that an employer offer you any coverage at all, you realize this right?

Anyway, that you agree to work for someone, doesn't give you the right, nor ability to dictate what it is the terms of that employment that any employer must give to you upon acceptance over what they, and you have agreed to upon initial employment. If you don't like the terms of employment, or level of benefits, then BUY YOUR OWN!, or find a different job.

This idea that once you get hired, you somehow "own" the job, and the employer has some sort of social responsibility to give you what you want is laughable...


j-mac

But that's not quite true. Take wage. The employer decides on a wage to intict the employee to accept the position, but, the employer can't decide to pay less than the law allows. He may want to pay only 25 cents per hour, but the law would not allow him to even if someone would accept it. The law mandates minimum wage. Now, no law makes them hire someone, just as no law makes them offer insurance. But once done, they have to meet the law. The insurance isn't the employers after the hiring any more than the salary is. It belongs to the employee (who in a lot of cases contributes to the cost). For the employer to restrict too much is to push a belif on the employee. If the issue is cost, you might have more room. But if it is moral objection, well, you don't have the right to decide the employee's morals. Just as you can't dictate what they spend their cash on, you can't dictate what they use their insurance for based on moral objections. No clergy will be forced to use contraceptions. They are free not to based on their religious beliefs.
 
You suppose I have pertinent data, but then you doubt it...

Since you doubt it, before we even engage in conversation, there is no point in involving you in the conversation. No point in me trying work through your bias.

seriously?...it would seem your grasp of sarcasm is somewhat undeveloped which I suppose, makes the rest of your dismissal a good thing.
 
seriously?...it would seem your grasp of sarcasm is somewhat undeveloped which I suppose, makes the rest of your dismissal a good thing.

No, I grasped the sarcasm. Which does nothing to change the fact you believe I do not have data. So lets just roll with your assumption, makes the discussion easier that way.
 
But that's not quite true. Take wage. The employer decides on a wage to intict the employee to accept the position, but, the employer can't decide to pay less than the law allows. He may want to pay only 25 cents per hour, but the law would not allow him to even if someone would accept it. The law mandates minimum wage.

The attempt to paint employers as greedy, stingy, thieves of labor here is just plain silly Joe. Many jobs pay a great deal more than mandated minimum wage in order to entice qualified people to take jobs, however that doesn't mean that later at some point in that career whether through hard times at the company, or lack of performance on the part of the person hired, that the wage can not be adjusted down as long as it doesn't go below minimum wage.

Now, no law makes them hire someone, just as no law makes them offer insurance. But once done, they have to meet the law.

And please cite the law as it stands today that requires an employer to offer any insurance plan with demanded coverage that the employee wants....

The insurance isn't the employers after the hiring any more than the salary is.

Sure it is. The salary is tied to employment, and a job done for the employer. You are not paid in advance of the job. And once hired, you no more own the job, than the employer owns you. Either, or both are free to sever the relationship.

It belongs to the employee (who in a lot of cases contributes to the cost).

No Joe, it doesn't. Period. An employer can at any time, as it stands now, cut insurance benefits for any reason they decide is beneficial to their business.

For the employer to restrict too much is to push a belif on the employee.

No, you are just plain wrong. The employer, in this case the Catholic Church is not telling employees that they must live by the Catholic doctrine, they are free to purchase on their own contraceptives, abortions, or any other product, or activity that is outside the doctrine, however, you can't force them to pay for it.

If the issue is cost, you might have more room. But if it is moral objection, well, you don't have the right to decide the employee's morals.

No one is doing that. The Church is not restricting behavior here. Simply saying that they will not pay for it. It's called religious freedom.

Just as you can't dictate what they spend their cash on, you can't dictate what they use their insurance for based on moral objections.

You don't have to offer a product to someone just because they want it, if you don't agree with that product. So while use is not the issue, they could just simply fire those pushing for this. Would that make you happy?

No clergy will be forced to use contraceptions. They are free not to based on their religious beliefs.


Who said they would be? Ending with a strawman is not a winning strategy Joe.


j-mac
 
Greedy. No never said, suggested, painted, hinted or argued anything about being greedy. J, please reswpond to what is actually there.

Nor have I claimed this is a law requiring they have to offer an inusrance pay any more than there is a law requiring they offer a job. But like pay, once offered, there are requirements that have to be met. Agian, stay within the confines of what I said. And yes, insurance belongs to the employee. The employee goes to the doctor, pharmay, nurse practitioner. The employee engages the service. The employee decides who they will see and what they take advantage of. You have the system completely wrong. The employer does not say to the employee that you will use contraceptions. They don't say you will use viagra. They do not say you will have an abortion. The employee decides.

yes, salary and insurance, all compensation, is tied to employment. It is given (look up the word compensation) to the employee for services rendered. Once that is done, it is the empoyee's.

And yes, the Church is saying you the employee may not use your compensation as you see fit, but as we see fit. No oen argues a preist or anyone who doesn't believe something has to do something, but they are saying you may do what you believe. It is to be available for those who disagree with those beliefs. So, it is the church restricting use of the employee's compensation.

And do look up strawman so you understand it better. The point at the end was to make a distinction between what is government infringement and what isn't. it is essential in following an argument that you know what is actually being argued.
 
Greedy. No never said, suggested, painted, hinted or argued anything about being greedy. J, please reswpond to what is actually there.

Nor have I claimed this is a law requiring they have to offer an inusrance pay any more than there is a law requiring they offer a job. But like pay, once offered, there are requirements that have to be met. Agian, stay within the confines of what I said. And yes, insurance belongs to the employee. The employee goes to the doctor, pharmay, nurse practitioner. The employee engages the service. The employee decides who they will see and what they take advantage of. You have the system completely wrong. The employer does not say to the employee that you will use contraceptions. They don't say you will use viagra. They do not say you will have an abortion. The employee decides.

yes, salary and insurance, all compensation, is tied to employment. It is given (look up the word compensation) to the employee for services rendered. Once that is done, it is the empoyee's.

And yes, the Church is saying you the employee may not use your compensation as you see fit, but as we see fit. No oen argues a preist or anyone who doesn't believe something has to do something, but they are saying you may do what you believe. It is to be available for those who disagree with those beliefs. So, it is the church restricting use of the employee's compensation.

And do look up strawman so you understand it better. The point at the end was to make a distinction between what is government infringement and what isn't. it is essential in following an argument that you know what is actually being argued.


Joe, you have embarrassingly pointed out that you have a fundamental non understanding of how employment, and HR work within a free non union business. And until you start posting like you have the slightest clue of how these functions work, we are done here, and I stand by my last post to you, further, I don't think you are debating here in good faith anymore, and frankly I grow tired of your laughable parsing, and denial of what is in black and white for everyone to see here. You clearly can not discuss anymore without this subterfuge entrenched within your sentence structure. Frankly, I find it boring.

j-mac
 
Why can't we bitch about abortion? The pill and condoms have shown to be just as ineffective, while supporting unhealthy social behavior. While abstinence is always 100% effective when actually done, and it supports healthy social behavior.

This is bull. Teen pregnancy is at the lowest its been since the 1940s because of knowledge and availability of BC options, including the pill, condoms, and other BC aids.

U.S. teen pregnancy rates at an all-time low across all ethnicities - HealthPop - CBS News

Abstinence is not a realistic expectation of most people, particularly those who are married. Healthy sexual relations, even when not trying to make babies, are very important to a healthy marriage. So it is better to prevent pregnancies from occurring with BC than it is to have these "healthy" marriages to suffer because either a) they have to "abstain" because they really can't afford more children or b) they end up having more babies they really can't afford.
 
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