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Thread: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    How is that different from today? I assume that you have employer based insurance, let's say an 80/20 plan with deductibles. Are you not free to buy additional insurance if you choose?
    Because business no longer has to think about health care or pay for it. Sure, they could try a system now where businesses didn't pay --- and good luck getting that to fly.

    If the government covers the cost for basic health care then business is off the hook. It would help get our businesses closer to a level playing field in the global market.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-07-12 at 03:29 PM.
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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by ChunkySalsa View Post
    You stick your foot out of the church and the separation of church from state no longer applies. Bitching about their businesses having to abide by the same business regulations as everyone else should get them thrown out of court with hefty fines imposed for wasting the court's time with self-important bull****.
    Here here!
    The Church's moral outrage might ring more true if they allowed child-crime priests to be thrown in the slammer.
    IMHO this all boils down to a bunch of Grumpy Old Men losing control of the flock.
    Nothing more.

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Has no bearing and means nothing to what we're discussing. Sorry.

    I'm sorry, WHAT? No bearing? Did you listen to his ridiculous hypothetical? I think it gives a great insight into what liberal/progressives believe should be in place, including you Joe.

    That is again false. All the Government will be in charge of is what they pay for. You can buy more.
    So, I get to pay twice....Great!

    You assume wrong.
    You don't have health insurance?

    Nothign will stop your employer from offering more insurance, but he won't have to, so I expect fewer will.
    As it stands right now, many employers are considering just paying the fine and pulling out of offering an insurance benefit all together....Because of Obama, the fine is cheaper....

    However, you can buy more.
    How? After you liberal/progressive/statists get done with the money I earned, I won't have any left.

    You can pay for service yourself.
    See above.

    All the government policy does is pay for minimial adequate care.
    Again, I have that now for a small co-pay. Why should I give government that control, or let them bankrupt the country for it?

    It doesn't stop there.
    You're right that it doesn't, because you are in no way telling the truth here.

    Perhaps you have a point here, but we have to cover the same misinformation over and over again.
    And only the information you have is true information? Bull.

    What will it take to have someone actually learn what the differences are?
    I don't know, but you should start by questioning what you believe about this, seems that the talking points is all I am getting in this from you, which I believe to be the real misinformation.

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by uncleray View Post
    Here here!
    The Church's moral outrage might ring more true if they allowed child-crime priests to be thrown in the slammer.
    IMHO this all boils down to a bunch of Grumpy Old Men losing control of the flock.
    Nothing more.

    What an ignorant thing to say. Tell me friend, do you have a religion?


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I'm sorry, WHAT? No bearing? Did you listen to his ridiculous hypothetical? I think it gives a great insight into what liberal/progressives believe should be in place, including you Joe.
    I listened j. It has no bearing, and is largely misrepresented. But, the important fact here is it does not address my points.


    So, I get to pay twice....Great!
    Nope. That's just silly. Buying more is more. If I pay for a burger, and then pay for fires, I'm not paying for the same thing twice.


    You don't have health insurance?
    J, I think you're doing the CP thing where you get confused and lose meaning by breaking down too far. Go back and read all the sentences together. I have faith you can figure out your error.



    As it stands right now, many employers are considering just paying the fine and pulling out of offering an insurance benefit all together....Because of Obama, the fine is cheaper....
    Which has nothing to do with what we're talking about. No single payer system is on the table.



    How? After you liberal/progressive/statists get done with the money I earned, I won't have any left.
    Do pay attention to the discussion. You have the freedom to buy more.



    See above.
    Your response is no better here.

    Again, I have that now for a small co-pay. Why should I give government that control, or let them bankrupt the country for it?
    Control? You'd likely pay less with a government single payer system. However, you are really missing the discussion here. And people who don't have insurance will certainly benefit more.



    You're right that it doesn't, because you are in no way telling the truth here.
    J, what are you talking about. This is non-responsive to what is being said.

    And only the information you have is true information? Bull.
    Again, not what I said. But the information I'm giving is accurate, and those I'm speaking to, including you are not accurate. You can be silly if you want, but do try to stay within the realm of what has actually been said.


    I don't know, but you should start by questioning what you believe about this, seems that the talking points is all I am getting in this from you, which I believe to be the real misinformation.

    j-mac
    No, you're getting factual information. You, not me, are the one relying on mindless talking points.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I listened j.
    I doubt it.

    It has no bearing, and is largely misrepresented.
    It does have bearing as to insight into what progressives think should be done in a Single payer system. And how is it being "misrepresented?"

    But, the important fact here is it does not address my points.
    Only because you didn't listen to it. Largely because I don't think you want an honest discussion on this, you want to have people agree with you or you will distract, dismiss, and attack.

    Nope. That's just silly.
    Why don't you honestly debate this instead of constantly trying to inflame your opponent?

    Buying more is more.
    Not if the government has control, then you just get less, and pay more.

    If I pay for a burger, and then pay for fires, I'm not paying for the same thing twice.
    Where do you get 'fires' with your burger? But no listen, you give a wonderful analogy here as to why we shouldn't let government anywhere near this. And that is simply the ala cart phenomena, see here you are talking about buying a burger, then ordering a side order of fries, when you could just get the meal deal and pay less.

    J, I think you're doing the CP thing where you get confused and lose meaning by breaking down too far. Go back and read all the sentences together. I have faith you can figure out your error.
    The mistake is in humoring this aspect of the discussion in the first place. This is about HHS forcing through regulation something on the church which is against their beliefs.

    Which has nothing to do with what we're talking about. No single payer system is on the table.
    That is because no one want's a single payer system, other than those that don't like what America is.

    Do pay attention to the discussion. You have the freedom to buy more.
    I am free to do that now. But why should I pay for yours? What is the origin of debt that I have to those without insurance?

    Control? You'd likely pay less with a government single payer system.
    "likely" is a wonderfully weasely word isn't it Joe? Because it allows you to seemingly get your way as things are debated, then when it turns south in practice, you get the luxury of saying, that isn't what I said, I said likely......Why don't you stick with facts instead of weasel words like, "likely"....


    However, you are really missing the discussion here. And people who don't have insurance will certainly benefit more.
    Explain my origin of indebtedness to them.

    J, what are you talking about. This is non-responsive to what is being said.
    That is because it is a statement, not a response.

    Again, not what I said. But the information I'm giving is accurate, and those I'm speaking to, including you are not accurate.
    Says you...But see, that is the funny thing with those that disagree with you....Just because you type/say something, doesn't make it true.

    You can be silly if you want, but do try to stay within the realm of what has actually been said.
    Playing games again I see...I must be hitting home....

    No, you're getting factual information. You, not me, are the one relying on mindless talking points.
    Like much here, you are dead wrong Joe.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I doubt it.
    Yet another thing you would be wrong about.

    It does have bearing as to insight into what progressives think should be done in a Single payer system. And how is it being "misrepresented?
    You're not discussing anything with progressives, or liberals, or any other silly group. You discussing with me, and it has no bearing on anything I've said.



    Only because you didn't listen to it. Largely because I don't think you want an honest discussion on this, you want to have people agree with you or you will distract, dismiss, and attack.
    Again, you are wrong. And again, it had no bearing.



    Why don't you honestly debate this instead of constantly trying to inflame your opponent?
    J, what you said was silly and off point. What do you expect?


    Not if the government has control, then you just get less, and pay more.
    define control? We're only talking about a payer. They don't control anything other than what they will pay for. You can buy anything else you want. Again, you're off somewhere other than discussing what is before you.

    Where do you get 'fires' with your burger? But no listen, you give a wonderful analogy here as to why we shouldn't let government anywhere near this. And that is simply the ala cart phenomena, see here you are talking about buying a burger, then ordering a side order of fries, when you could just get the meal deal and pay less.
    I can get them at all kinds of different places if I choose. And I can get the entire meal as well. It is up to me.

    The mistake is in humoring this aspect of the discussion in the first place. This is about HHS forcing through regulation something on the church which is against their beliefs.
    You might try actually having the discussion. You haven't done that yet. And like CP, you often either miss the meat of the content, or you deliberately seek to bury the content so you don't have to address it. Debating stereotypes is easier.


    That is because no one want's a single payer system, other than those that don't like what America is.
    If it was what you describe, i wouldn't want it either. But since it isn't, we should first look at what it really is.

    I am free to do that now. But why should I pay for yours? What is the origin of debt that I have to those without insurance?



    "likely" is a wonderfully weasely word isn't it Joe? Because it allows you to seemingly get your way as things are debated, then when it turns south in practice, you get the luxury of saying, that isn't what I said, I said likely......Why don't you stick with facts instead of weasel words like, "likely"....
    I'm sorry j, I could be all stupid, like using out of context clips, but until something specific is proposed, we have to use words like "likely." The fact is there are many types of single payer systems, and we'd "LIKELY" have a two tiered system here, if not multiple tiered.


    Explain my origin of indebtedness to them.
    No one said you were.Nor was that point. Now read all the sentences together.

    That is because it is a statement, not a response.
    Do you see the problem with that? It should be lin to responding to a point. Random statements are kind of useless.

    Says you...But see, that is the funny thing with those that disagree with you....Just because you type/say something, doesn't make it true.
    J, facts are not opinions. Disagreement doesn't come into play with them. You still don't seem to know much about single payer systems.

    Playing games again I see...I must be hitting home....
    You say things off topic and silly, and I'm playing games? Do you really believe this?


    Like much here, you are dead wrong Joe.


    j-mac
    No, j, I've given you factual information. it is you who don't know what a single payer system is.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Not one thing you posted Joe has a link to back up your opinion, and assertions. So for you to say that you are presenting facts, is kind of like todays hearing with Holder where Issa asks him what documents DoJ is withholding, and Holder starts going off on saying what he has turned over...You don't answer anything, you don't respond honestly, or accurately. In fact, all you do is verbal gymnastics, twisting yourself into knots trying to accuse your opponent of being 'silly', and all kinds of other inflammatory rhetoric, that really speak more to your severe case of projection than anything else.

    Like I said before, this thread is supposed to be about the HHS dept. and their mandate on the Catholic church, not UHC, or anything else...So unless you have something on topic, we are done Joe. I am not going to give myself the headache wasting time with you, and your dishonest tactics.

    j-mac
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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Not one thing you posted Joe has a link to back up your opinion, and assertions. So for you to say that you are presenting facts, is kind of like todays hearing with Holder where Issa asks him what documents DoJ is withholding, and Holder starts going off on saying what he has turned over...You don't answer anything, you don't respond honestly, or accurately. In fact, all you do is verbal gymnastics, twisting yourself into knots trying to accuse your opponent of being 'silly', and all kinds of other inflammatory rhetoric, that really speak more to your severe case of projection than anything else.

    Like I said before, this thread is supposed to be about the HHS dept. and their mandate on the Catholic church, not UHC, or anything else...So unless you have something on topic, we are done Joe. I am not going to give myself the headache wasting time with you, and your dishonest tactics.

    j-mac
    J, the links have bene given many times, and you entered into this conversation. So stop whining when you can't actually debate what's being said. But some links for you:

    Single-payer health care definition - Medical Dictionary definitions of popular medical terms easily defined on MedTerms

    The first is defining a universally accepted minimum, then ensuring that all citizens receive that minimum, be it with respect to health insurance generosity, quality of care, or other features. The second is to allow individuals to purchase above that minimum—but not to subsidize such purchases through the government. Any public resources devoted to this problem should be devoted to financing an acceptable minimum, not to promoting choices
    beyond that level.

    http://economics.mit.edu/files/6415

    Importantly, the term “single payer” is different from “socialized medicine” and “universal health care.” Socialized medicine refers to a system like the National Health Service of the U.K., in which the mechanisms of delivery of health care are owned by the government. That is, the government owns the health care facilities and physicians work for the government. In contrast, the mechanisms of delivery of health care in a single payer system are not necessarily owned by the government. Physicians can be either in private practice or public practice, and hospitals can be both publicly or privately owned. In Canada, for example, physicians are predominantly in private practice, while hospitals are both public and private. As another example, American physicians and hospitals that take care of Medicare patients are usually private. Single payer does not specify a health care delivery mechanism; it specifies a health care financing mechanism.

    (snip)

    Single payer systems are heterogeneous; Canada’s system is different from Sweden’s system, which is different from U.S. Medicare, and so on.

    http://www.amsa.org/AMSA/Libraries/C...r101.sflb.ashx

    Germany, the Netherlands, France and many other countries around the world all have serious problems, just like the United States has, but, nonetheless, have universal coverage without having a single-payer system. I'll point that out. They're often perceived as having single-payer systems, but they are by no means singlepayer systems, and they provide universal and reasonably comprehensive care with pretty good medical outcomes for one-half to two-thirds the cost of the U.S. system (maybe it's closer to that one-half end). I think a proper adaptation of bits and pieces for several of those systems woven into a modified U.S. system could very well be the answer, at least theoretically. Unfortunately, a lot of what we're going to be talking about is theoretical, because we can all design things that would work in an ideal world. Unfortunately, we don't very often have the chance to start with a
    tabula rasa and design it that way.

    http://www.soa.org/library/proceedin...4v30n1110d.pdf

    There's much, much more j. But you'd have to want to know.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Now j, I'm going to continue to show you different single payer systems:

    Balanced Choice is a variant of single-payer that employs an integrated two-tier system for physician payment, with both tiers included in the publicly funded system

    http://www.law.hawaii.edu/sites/www....ced_Choice.pdf

    The central/private model of single-payer system is similar to the central/public model except that health services are delivered mainly by private providers who contract with a single purchaser. Benefits are uniform and set by the central government. Taiwan is an example of a country that has implemented a central/private single-payer system. It is also an example of a middle-income country that successfully made a transition from a multiple-payer health insurance system that did not cover a large section of the population to a universal single-payer health insurance system. Taiwan, a newly industrialized country, established universal single-payer health insurance in 1995. In 2001, 96 percent of the population had insurance coverage, compared to 55 percent in 1995 (Huang, Wang, and Yaung 2001). Prior to national health insurance, three separate insurance pools covered, respectively,
    private sector employees, government employees, and farmers (Cheng and Chiang 1997).

    (snip- and another form)

    One potential way to balance the tradeoffs between single- and multiple-payer insurance systems is to increase the role of private insurance alongside a universal single-payer insurer. All citizens would be entitled to the single-payer insurance policy, with the option of buying extra benefits in the private insurance sector. Private insurance coverage can accommodate consumer needs that are not met by the single-payer insurer for those able to pay for it. It can be purchased by individuals or employers.

    http://siteresources.worldbank.org/H...ssuesFinal.pdf

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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