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Thread: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

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    Quote Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
    Again...whatever you say:

    The Affordable Care Act - Implementation Timeline

    In March 2010, Congress passed and the President signed into law the Affordable Care Act, which puts in place comprehensive health insurance reforms that will hold insurance companies accountable, lower costs, guarantee choice, and enhance quality health care for all Americans.
    Whether you get insurance through work, buy it yourself, have a small business, are on Medicare, or don't currently have insurance, the Affordable Care Act gives you control to make your own decisions about your health coverage. It makes insurance more affordable by providing the largest middle class tax cut for health care in history, reducing premium costs for millions of families and small business owners who are priced out of coverage today. This helps 32 million Americans afford health care who do not get it today -- and makes coverage more affordable for many more. Under the plan, 94% of Americans will be insured.
    To lower costs, the Affordable Care Act sets up a new competitive private health insurance market -- through state Exchanges -- giving millions of Americans and small businesses access to affordable coverage and the same choices of insurance that members of Congress will have. It holds insurance companies accountable by keeping premiums down and preventing insurance industry abuses and denial of care, and it will end discrimination against Americans with pre-existing conditions. And, it puts our budget and economy on a more stable path by reducing the deficit by more than $100 billion over the next ten years -- and more than $1 trillion over the second decade-- by cutting government overspending and reining in waste, fraud and abuse.
    Starting this year and continuing through 2014, the Affordable Care Act will be implemented, increasing access to affordable health care for individuals, families, seniors and businesses. Many important benefits begin immediately, including bans on the worst insurance company abuses, cost savings for seniors, families and small and large businesses, and coverage options for many Americans who have been locked out of the insurance market because of a preexisting condition.

    This Year


    New Consumer Protections

    • No Discrimination Against Children With Pre-Existing Conditions. The new law includes new rules to prevent insurance companies from denying coverage to children with pre-existing conditions. Effective for health plan years beginning on or after September 23.


    • Prohibits Insurance Companies from Dropping Coverage. In the past, insurance companies could search for an error on a customer's application or other technical mistake and use this error to stop covering the person when he or she got sick. The new law makes this illegal and after media reports cited incidents of breast cancer patients losing coverage, insurance companies agreed to end this practice immediately. Effective for health plan years beginning on or after September 23. Click here to learn more.


    • Eliminating Lifetime Limits on Insurance Coverage. Under the new law, insurance companies will be prohibited from imposing lifetime dollar limits on essential benefits, like hospital stays. Effective for health plan years beginning on or after September 23.


    • Regulating Annual Limits on Insurance Coverage. Under the new law, insurance companies' use of annual dollar limits on the amount of insurance coverage a patient may receive is sharply restricted. In 2014, the use of annual dollar limits on essential benefits like hospital stays will be banned for new plans in the individual market and all group plans. Effective for health plan years beginning on or after September 23.


    • Appealing Insurance Company Decisions. The law provides consumers with an easy way to appeal to their insurance company and to an outside board if the company denies coverage or a claim. Effective for health plan years beginning on or after September 23.


    • Information for Consumers Online. The law creates an easy to use website where consumers can compare health insurance coverage options and pick the plan that works for them. Effective July 1, 2010. Click here to learn more.

    Improving Quality and Lowering Costs

    • Small Business Health Insurance Tax Credit. Up to 4 million small businesses are eligible for tax credits to help them provide insurance benefits to their workers. The first phase of this provision provides a credit worth up to 35 percent of the employer's contribution to the employees' health insurance. Small non-profit organizations may receive up to a 25 percent credit. Effective now. Click here to learn more.


    • Relief for Four Million Seniors Who Hit the Medicare Prescription Drug "Donut Hole." An estimated four million seniors who hit the gap in Medicare prescription drug coverage known as the "donut hole" this year will receive a $250 rebate. First checks mailed in June, 2010, and will continue monthly throughout 2010 as seniors hit the coverage gap. Click here to learn more.


    • Free Preventive Care. All new plans must cover certain preventive services such as mammograms and colonoscopies without charging a deductible, co-pay or coinsurance. Effective for health plan years beginning on or after September 23.


    • Preventing Disease and Illness. A new $15 billionPrevention and Public Health Fund will invest in proven prevention and public health programs that can help keep Americans healthy -- from smoking cessation to combating obesity. Funding begins in 2010.


    • Cracking Down on Health Care Fraud. Current efforts to fight fraud have returned more than $2.5 billion to the Medicare Trust Fund in FY 2009 alone. The new law invests new resources and requires new screening procedures for health care providers to boost these efforts and reduce fraud and waste in Medicare, Medicaid, and CHIP. Many provisions effective now. Click here to learn more.

    Increasing Access to Affordable Care

    • Access to Insurance for Uninsured Americans with Pre-Existing Conditions. A transitional high risk pool program will provide new coverage options to individuals who are uninsured because of a pre-existing condition for at least six months. States have the option of running their own temporary high risk pool. If a state chooses not to do so, a pool will be established by the Department of Health and Human Services. National pool effective July 1. Click here to learn more.


    • Extending Coverage for Young Adults. Under the new law, young adults will be allowed to stay on their parents' plan until they turn 26 years old unless they are offered insurance at work. While the provision takes effect in September, most insurance companies have already implemented this new practice. Check with your insurance company or employer to see if you qualify. Effective for health plan years beginning on or after September 23. Click here to learn more.


    • Coverage for Early Retirees. Too often, Americans who retire without employer-sponsored insurance and before they are eligible for Medicare see their life savings disappear because of exorbitant rates in the individual market. To preserve employer coverage for early retirees until more affordable coverage is available through the exchanges in 2014, the new law creates a $5 billion program to help people who retire before age 65 maintain the affordable care they need. Applications for employers to participate in the program available June 1. Click here to learn more.


    • Rebuilding the Primary Care Workforce. To strengthen the primary care workforce, new incentives in the law to expand the number of primary care doctors, nurses and physician assistants include funding for scholarships and loan repayments for primary care doctors and nurses working in underserved areas. Doctors and nurses with student loans will also receive tax relief if they practice in communities with a shortage of health care providers. Effective 2010.


    • Holding Insurance Companies Accountable for Unreasonable Rate Hikes. The law allows states that have or plan to implement measures that require insurance companies to justify their premium increases will be eligible for $250 million in new grants and insurance companies with excessive or unjustified premium exchanges may not be able to participate in the new health insurance Exchanges in 2014. Grants will be awarded beginning in 2010.


    • Allowing States to Cover More People on Medicaid. States will receive increased federal matching funds for covering low-income individuals and families on Medicaid. This will make it easier for states that choose to do so to cover more of their residents. Effective April 1, 2010.


    • Payments for Rural Health Care Providers. Today, 68 percent of medically underserved communities across the nation are in rural areas, and these communities often have trouble attracting and retaining medical professionals. The law provides rural health care providers the payments they need and ensures they can continue to serve their communities. Effective 2010.


    2011
    The Affordable Care Act - Implementation Timeline | The White House
    You can spew out reams of this law if you choose, doesn't change a thing in what will happen this month when Obama care goes down.

    J-mac

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    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    You can spew out reams of this law if you choose, doesn't change a thing in what will happen this month when Obama care goes down
    And what a great day in American that will be.

    When once again Insurance companies can deny children coverage for pre-existing conditions.

    I tell yah, I'll be playing America the beautiful and setting off fireworks in my back yard

  3. #293
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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    And what a great day in American that will be.

    When once again Insurance companies can deny children coverage for pre-existing conditions.

    I tell yah, I'll be playing America the beautiful and setting off fireworks in my back yard
    Your homeowners insurance and your auto insurance policies also ban coverage for pre-existing condidtions (no coverage for damage that occured prior to the policy being issued), which keeps you from not buying insurance until (after?) you need it, or adding 'dependents' to the policy only after they need expensive care.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-02-12 at 09:53 AM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    You can spew out reams of this law if you choose, doesn't change a thing in what will happen this month when Obama care goes down.

    J-mac

    Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
    Considering my post was in direct response to this:

    "Quote Originally Posted by j-mac
    Sorry, but the HC law from Obama is not yet implemented, and may never be...snip"

    Your comment is once again sidestepping admission of your inaccuracy.

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Your homeowners insurance and your auto insurance policies also ban coverage for pre-existing condidtions (no coverage for damage that occured prior to the policy being issued), which keeps you from not buying insurance until (after?) you need it, or adding 'dependents' to the policy only after they need expensive care.
    If this were the "affordable home and auto insurance act".....there would be relevance in your reply.

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    To boo, hc coverage as it stands today, is up to the employer as to the plan that they Taylor to offer their own employees. That includes churches and the services open to the public to use. Minimum wage is written in federal law, hc although law, is not mandated yet, and will likely be stuck down this month. So your comparison is wanting. Plus, the church has filed its own law suit, which they are also likely to win.

    All I can say is shame on you libs for trying to dictate to the church what they should do regardless of their beliefs while at the same time screaming like stuck pigs if anything remotely religious is brought of in public like a prayer, or poster of the commandments.

    J-mac
    Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
    It hasn't been struck down yet. But that isn't the issue here either. The issue is whether a business, no matter who owns that business, a secular business, can claim they are special. Clergy, by our laws, are special. Teacher, nurse, doctors, are not. The insurance belongs to these people once given. Not any clergy. No church. But hospitals and schools.

    No one is dictating to the church. The church and the clergy are exempt. Workers who are not clergy are not. Businessess that are not churches are not.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
    Considering my post was in direct response to this:

    "Quote Originally Posted by j-mac
    Sorry, but the HC law from Obama is not yet implemented, and may never be...snip"

    Your comment is once again sidestepping admission of your inaccuracy.

    Ok, please point out where then in that snip of the some 2700 page law, that we just had to pass to find out what was in it, that it states that Catholic Schools, Hospitals, Charities, MUST provide Birth Control, up to and including drugs like RU486 that is an abortion drug?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley
    It hasn't been struck down yet. But that isn't the issue here either. The issue is whether a business, no matter who owns that business, a secular business, can claim they are special. Clergy, by our laws, are special. Teacher, nurse, doctors, are not. The insurance belongs to these people once given. Not any clergy. No church. But hospitals and schools.

    No one is dictating to the church. The church and the clergy are exempt. Workers who are not clergy are not. Businessess that are not churches are not.
    Joe, you are still NOT getting it. Allow me to break it down for you so that you can address what I am saying instead of continuing this frustrating path of misdirection by you.

    1. No one is arguing that once you agree to participate in a companies Heath Plan, that it is considered as part of a compensation package for the employee. Or, that once enrolled that you as the employee can't use that plan to its full extent in what it offers as set up by the employer, and the insurance company that administers the plan.

    However, if for example, your plan doesn't cover cosmetic surgery, you can not go into a plastic surgeon and demand that he do the procedure based on what you think your plan should cover. Just as you can not go back to the employer and demand that they now taylor a plan that covers cosmetic surgery because you say it is some sort of right. If it's not in the negotiated HC plan offered from the employer, then it isn't in the plan. And if you don't like it, you are free to buy your own plan.

    2. Another straw argument that you are promoting with your argument is that you somehow are trying to say that those of us that are siding with the church on this are doing such because of the fallacy of clergy being forced to purchase BC themselves. That is false and misleading. And I implore you to show where ANYONE has argued that.

    No, this is about institutions that are administered by the Church, and funded by the Church, being told to offer something in direct opposition to their fundamental tenants of the religion. The Church doesn't monitor all Catholics, and or lay people that work for them, or not, and tell them that they can't go out and buy a box of condoms, or the pill, and you are correct that many cafeteria Catholics do indeed do that. That is up to them.

    However, to use the HHS to regulate that Churches that are structurally involved with running schools, Hospitals, Charities, etc. are now mandated to provide a coverage plan to their employees that offer something against their doctrine, is so cynically wrong, and underhanded, that I can only deduct that it was brought out at this time as a total distraction to what the President faces as a referendum on his last 4 years in office, and the total failure of a net loss in jobs, a $5 trillion addition to the debt, and his total division of this country.

    j-mac
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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    [QUOTE=j-mac;1060558427]
    Joe, you are still NOT getting it. Allow me to break it down for you so that you can address what I am saying instead of continuing this frustrating path of misdirection by you.

    1. No one is arguing that once you agree to participate in a companies Heath Plan, that it is considered as part of a compensation package for the employee. Or, that once enrolled that you as the employee can't use that plan to its full extent in what it offers as set up by the employer, and the insurance company that administers the plan.

    However, if for example, your plan doesn't cover cosmetic surgery, you can not go into a plastic surgeon and demand that he do the procedure based on what you think your plan should cover. Just as you can not go back to the employer and demand that they now taylor a plan that covers cosmetic surgery because you say it is some sort of right. If it's not in the negotiated HC plan offered from the employer, then it isn't in the plan. And if you don't like it, you are free to buy your own plan.
    Well, some are disputing that, but to this point. This is why I bring up minimum wage. It too belongs to the employer before given. The employer may want to pay less. It is his after all. But the law mandates he pay more, even if his belif system says they should not pay that much.

    The employer si not paying for birth control. He's only paying for the insurance. He would only pay for birth control if he personally went into the clinic or doctor's office and got birth control for him or herself. Just as when the employer gives the employee cash, he's not paying for the porn the employee buys. But he is mandated that he give that employee a minimum wage, which helps him pay for the porn.

    2. Another straw argument that you are promoting with your argument is that you somehow are trying to say that those of us that are siding with the church on this are doing such because of the fallacy of clergy being forced to purchase BC themselves. That is false and misleading. And I implore you to show where ANYONE has argued that.

    No, this is about institutions that are administered by the Church, and funded by the Church, being told to offer something in direct opposition to their fundamental tenants of the religion. The Church doesn't monitor all Catholics, and or lay people that work for them, or not, and tell them that they can't go out and buy a box of condoms, or the pill, and you are correct that many cafeteria Catholics do indeed do that. That is up to them.
    You really should look up strawman. You've been wrong on the word a few times lately.

    You miss the point of the clergy argument I've advanced. This is why I often question whether you read the arguments or not. I have never said you argued clergy is being forced to buy BC. I've argued that is the only way it would be a violation against the church. It's a valid and clear point. To be a strawman you have to show that no one has argued the churches rights are being violated. Good luck with that.

    However, to use the HHS to regulate that Churches that are structurally involved with running schools, Hospitals, Charities, etc. are now mandated to provide a coverage plan to their employees that offer something against their doctrine, is so cynically wrong, and underhanded, that I can only deduct that it was brought out at this time as a total distraction to what the President faces as a referendum on his last 4 years in office, and the total failure of a net loss in jobs, a $5 trillion addition to the debt, and his total division of this country.

    j-mac
    Those business are not churches and thus do not qualify for any excemption. None. This is the fundamental point. They are not churches, and their employees are not cleargy, so they don't qualify as exempt organizations.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Well, some are disputing that, but to this point.
    Who? Who is disputing that? Show us...Along with postings please.

    This is why I bring up minimum wage.
    Which is a false analogy.

    It too belongs to the employer before given. The employer may want to pay less. It is his after all. But the law mandates he pay more, even if his belif system says they should not pay that much.
    LOL, if you have some religion that calls for any business to pay less than Fed Mandated minimum wage then do post it...Other than that you are really losing it man....LOL.

    The employer si not paying for birth control. He's only paying for the insurance.
    Correct, and as such gets to determine what is covered in it based on how much each policy would cost them, what they want covered, etc.

    He would only pay for birth control if he personally went into the clinic or doctor's office and got birth control for him or herself.
    Oh, so who is paying for the BC? The insurance co. out of the what? goodness of their heart? give me a break.

    Just as when the employer gives the employee cash, he's not paying for the porn the employee buys.
    Money is fungible, Insurance policies are not.

    But he is mandated that he give that employee a minimum wage, which helps him pay for the porn.
    Like I said earlier. Bad analogy.

    You really should look up strawman. You've been wrong on the word a few times lately.

    "A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2]"

    Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Now look, when you make silly arguments about clergy buying BC, No one, and I mean no one buy you have brought up that scenario. That my friend is text book strawman argument. Now if you would, or could, quit playing games Joe.

    You miss the point of the clergy argument I've advanced. This is why I often question whether you read the arguments or not.
    And I question if you know how silly you sound.

    I have never said you argued clergy is being forced to buy BC. I've argued that is the only way it would be a violation against the church.
    Who pays for the insurance coverage?

    It's a valid and clear point. To be a strawman you have to show that no one has argued the churches rights are being violated. Good luck with that.
    Maybe you are the one that needs a refresher on it then Professor....

    Those business are not churches and thus do not qualify for any excemption.
    Sorry, you don't get to decide that, and neither does Obama, Sebilius, or any other Marxist hack that wants to stir this distraction up.

    They are not churches, and their employees are not cleargy, so they don't qualify as exempt organizations.
    And when the church pulls out of providing these services, who will pick up the slack? You?

    j-mac
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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Read the thread j. You'll find it.

    And no, it's not a false analogy. Both insurance and pay are compensation. Both belong to the employer before given to the employee. Both can be used on things the employer might not believe in. Both are subject to some government requirments. The fact is the two are exactly the same.

    And you did cut and paste a definition. However, you still misuse it. Slow down and read: I have never said you argued clergy is being forced to buy BC. I've argued that is the only way it would be a violation against the church. It's a valid and clear point. To be a strawman you have to show that no one has argued the churches rights are being violated. Good luck with that.

    And no, there is no debate. Schools and hospitals are not chuches. It isn;'t a matter of opinion. It is a fact.

    And j, like I said, the church won't pull out and if they did, they wouold lose far too much. Their congregation, their worshipers, overall who support contraceptions would hold that agsint the church huge. So, they won't pull out.
    Last edited by Boo Radley; 06-03-12 at 09:04 PM.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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