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Thread: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by Aberration View Post
    When they are providing the compensation... Yeah.
    If they aren't actually a church, no they should not be exempt from laws that effect every other business just because they happen to be partially funded by a church or sponsored by one. Those other business people have their own beliefs too.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    If they aren't actually a church, no they should not be exempt from laws that effect every other business just because they happen to be partially funded by a church or sponsored by one. Those other business people have their own beliefs too.
    I agree. They should just not provide insurance, and let their employees get ****ed in the competitive market the Federal government has fostered.
    “Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.”
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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by Aberration View Post
    I agree. They should just not provide insurance, and let their employees get ****ed in the competitive market the Federal government has fostered.
    Which would lead to us likely setting up UHC, which I am more than happy with. There is no way that most employees will be able to afford insurance on their own. And that means more people unable to pay their bills.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Considering the simple fact, that these Catholic Hospitals already perform sterilization, contraceptives, and various other "Conscience Compromised" services to the public they serve...I do not understand why they have an issue with a nurse taking the pill. They are already paying for BC by performing it regularly.

    I smell Bull****.

    "
    Appeal to Conscience Clauses in the Face of Divergent Practices among Catholic Hospitals

    Sandra S. Hapenney, Ph.D.
    Committee Chairperson: Francis J. Beckwith, Ph.D.

    Conscience clauses are laws enacted by federal and state governments to protect health care providers from participating in those medical practices they consider morally objectionable. This study examines the practices of Catholic hospitals and their adherence to the Ethical and Religious Directives (ERD) for Catholic Health Care Services issued by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. If divergence of practice exists among Catholic hospitals, such diversity may pose judicial and political problems for providing protection under the conscience clauses.

    Catholic hospitals in seven states—California, Illinois, Indiana, New Jersey, New York, Texas and Washington—were studied to determine if diversity of practice existed in the provision of direct female sterilizations. Inpatient discharge data was requested for three years (2007-2009) from the 1,734 hospitals, secular and Catholic, within the states. Of these hospitals, 239 Catholic hospitals were identified of which 176 provided obstetric services. The records of these 176 hospitals were searched for those containing the diagnostic code from the ICD-9-CM coding system for sterilization for contraceptive management. Eighty-five or 48% of these hospitals provided a total of 20,073 direct sterilizations in violation of the ERD.

    An analysis of Catholic hospital systems owning hospitals within the seven state study area illustrated that 69.0% the hospitals were members of 26 various Catholic hospital systems. Ten systems operating in the seven states also have hospitals outside the study area. Within these 10 systems, 64.2% of the hospitals in the study area performed direct sterilizations. An analysis of the Catholic dioceses in the study area revealed that 69.8% of the dioceses had hospitals which provided direct sterilizations. Thus, diversity of practice resulting from varied interpretations and applications of the ERD exists among hospitals, and within hospital systems and dioceses. An analysis of the conscience clauses illustrates that Catholic hospitals are in jeopardy of defending themselves against judicial challenges and could strip themselves of the ability to mount a political front to aid in defending the conscience clauses"


    View revision 1 of the entire dissertation in portable document format (pdf).
    Catholic Hospitals.org

    Keep your damn Dogma away from my Kharma...and quit diddling little boys.

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
    Considering the simple fact, that these Catholic Hospitals already perform sterilization, contraceptives, and various other "Conscience Compromised" services to the public they serve...I do not understand why they have an issue with a nurse taking the pill. They are already paying for BC by performing it regularly.

    I smell Bull****.

    "
    Appeal to Conscience Clauses in the Face of Divergent Practices among Catholic Hospitals

    Sandra S. Hapenney, Ph.D.
    Committee Chairperson: Francis J. Beckwith, Ph.D.

    Conscience clauses are laws enacted by federal and state governments to protect health care providers from participating in those medical practices they consider morally objectionable. This study examines the practices of Catholic hospitals and their adherence to the Ethical and Religious Directives (ERD) for Catholic Health Care Services issued by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. If divergence of practice exists among Catholic hospitals, such diversity may pose judicial and political problems for providing protection under the conscience clauses.

    Catholic hospitals in seven states—California, Illinois, Indiana, New Jersey, New York, Texas and Washington—were studied to determine if diversity of practice existed in the provision of direct female sterilizations. Inpatient discharge data was requested for three years (2007-2009) from the 1,734 hospitals, secular and Catholic, within the states. Of these hospitals, 239 Catholic hospitals were identified of which 176 provided obstetric services. The records of these 176 hospitals were searched for those containing the diagnostic code from the ICD-9-CM coding system for sterilization for contraceptive management. Eighty-five or 48% of these hospitals provided a total of 20,073 direct sterilizations in violation of the ERD.

    An analysis of Catholic hospital systems owning hospitals within the seven state study area illustrated that 69.0% the hospitals were members of 26 various Catholic hospital systems. Ten systems operating in the seven states also have hospitals outside the study area. Within these 10 systems, 64.2% of the hospitals in the study area performed direct sterilizations. An analysis of the Catholic dioceses in the study area revealed that 69.8% of the dioceses had hospitals which provided direct sterilizations. Thus, diversity of practice resulting from varied interpretations and applications of the ERD exists among hospitals, and within hospital systems and dioceses. An analysis of the conscience clauses illustrates that Catholic hospitals are in jeopardy of defending themselves against judicial challenges and could strip themselves of the ability to mount a political front to aid in defending the conscience clauses"


    View revision 1 of the entire dissertation in portable document format (pdf).
    Catholic Hospitals.org

    Keep your damn Dogma away from my Kharma...and quit diddling little boys.
    What a bizzarre argument. If some members (or more likely non-member employees) of a church supported facility sin, then the church loses its right to oppose that sin and must now directly fund that sin or pay a fine? That is much like saying, that because some non Jewish diners may wish to eat pork, that the Jewish run restaurant facility must offer pork on the menu or pay those customers to eat pork elsewhere.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by Aberration View Post
    When they are providing the compensation... Yeah.
    That makes no logical sense to me. It is very much like saying since the money in your paycheck is provided by a business, they decide how you spend it. Both are compensation. Both are from the business that hires the worker.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That makes no logical sense to me. It is very much like saying since the money in your paycheck is provided by a business, they decide how you spend it. Both are compensation. Both are from the business that hires the worker.
    No it is not very much like that. They are paying for the insurance. They should be able to decide what is insured. If you don't like it, just like if you don't like the wage or other working conditions, then find a new job.

    We would not even be having this discussion if the nanny ****ing state did not legislate this stupid ****.
    “Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.”
    ― Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by Aberration View Post
    No it is not very much like that. They are paying for the insurance. They should be able to decide what is insured. If you don't like it, just like if you don't like the wage or other working conditions, then find a new job.

    We would not even be having this discussion if the nanny ****ing state did not legislate this stupid ****.
    How is it different. The pay the salary. Hand the money to the employee to do with as they wish: Compensation. They hand the employee the insurance, and the employee, not the employer, goes to the doctor, hodpitals, clinics, pharmacys. Again, it is not the employer using it,but the employee as it belongs to the employee once given, just like the cash. You're trying to make a difference that really isn't there.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Yes the insurance belongs to the employee. What is offered belongs to the employer.

    There is a difference, whether you can grasp it or not.
    Last edited by Aberration; 05-31-12 at 01:26 PM.
    “Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.”
    ― Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
    Considering the simple fact, that these Catholic Hospitals already perform sterilization, contraceptives, and various other "Conscience Compromised" services to the public they serve...I do not understand why they have an issue with a nurse taking the pill. They are already paying for BC by performing it regularly.

    I smell Bull****.

    "
    Appeal to Conscience Clauses in the Face of Divergent Practices among Catholic Hospitals

    Sandra S. Hapenney, Ph.D.
    Committee Chairperson: Francis J. Beckwith, Ph.D.

    Conscience clauses are laws enacted by federal and state governments to protect health care providers from participating in those medical practices they consider morally objectionable. This study examines the practices of Catholic hospitals and their adherence to the Ethical and Religious Directives (ERD) for Catholic Health Care Services issued by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. If divergence of practice exists among Catholic hospitals, such diversity may pose judicial and political problems for providing protection under the conscience clauses.

    Catholic hospitals in seven states—California, Illinois, Indiana, New Jersey, New York, Texas and Washington—were studied to determine if diversity of practice existed in the provision of direct female sterilizations. Inpatient discharge data was requested for three years (2007-2009) from the 1,734 hospitals, secular and Catholic, within the states. Of these hospitals, 239 Catholic hospitals were identified of which 176 provided obstetric services. The records of these 176 hospitals were searched for those containing the diagnostic code from the ICD-9-CM coding system for sterilization for contraceptive management. Eighty-five or 48% of these hospitals provided a total of 20,073 direct sterilizations in violation of the ERD.

    An analysis of Catholic hospital systems owning hospitals within the seven state study area illustrated that 69.0% the hospitals were members of 26 various Catholic hospital systems. Ten systems operating in the seven states also have hospitals outside the study area. Within these 10 systems, 64.2% of the hospitals in the study area performed direct sterilizations. An analysis of the Catholic dioceses in the study area revealed that 69.8% of the dioceses had hospitals which provided direct sterilizations. Thus, diversity of practice resulting from varied interpretations and applications of the ERD exists among hospitals, and within hospital systems and dioceses. An analysis of the conscience clauses illustrates that Catholic hospitals are in jeopardy of defending themselves against judicial challenges and could strip themselves of the ability to mount a political front to aid in defending the conscience clauses"


    View revision 1 of the entire dissertation in portable document format (pdf).
    Catholic Hospitals.org

    Keep your damn Dogma away from my Kharma...and quit diddling little boys.

    Good talking point. You of course know why they polled those states right? Oh...you dont.

    California, Illinois and New York offer the same guidelines that the fed is now offering. That is, no exemption on those services to Catholic or faith based companies under Church control. Seven other states offer a narrow exemption guideline, which Im betting covers the other states mentioned in the above material. I believe it was 29 other states that offered the broad guidelines that allow chuch based orginzations to exempt themselves from offering these services.

    In other words, you are using an example where the state government doesnt allow them to opt out as proof that they offer those services, truly Orwellian.

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