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Thread: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

  1. #191
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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    "The Roman Catholic Church continues to see its membership increase in the U.S., while most Protestant churches are shrinking, according to an annual report by the National Council of Churches."

    Catholic church growing, Baptist and mainline Protestant numbers decline | Believe It or Not | a Chron.com blog
    It appears that the reason for this is mostly due to immigration patterns, not people changing religious affiliation.

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by Aberration View Post
    How is contraception the answer when it has been so ineffective?

    Do you HONESTLY think everyone will use it? Don't people need to be responsible then? Its a nice idea, buy far from reasonable.

    It is not YOUR answer. It is not logical to YOU. It seems plenty logical to me, considering how much effort has been put in to push the notion of safe sex and how ineffective it has been.
    ...Uh...I suppose you have pertinent data to back up the "Ineffective" claim, though I doubt it:

    "Contraception

    In the United States, almost half of all pregnancies are unintended.1 Yet, several safe and highly effective methods of contraception (birth control) are available to prevent unintended pregnancy. Since 2000, several new methods of birth control have become available in the United States, including the levonorgestrel-releasing intrauterine system, the hormonal contraceptive patch, the hormonal contraceptive ring, the hormonal implant, a 91-day regimen of oral contraceptives, two new barrier methods, and a new form of female sterilization. Learn more about the types of birth control available.

    Most women of reproductive age in the United States use birth control. Between 2006–2008, 99% of women who had ever had sexual intercourse had used at least one method of birth control; however, 7.3% of women who were currently at risk of unintended pregnancy were not using a contraceptive method.2 The most popular method of birth control was the oral contraceptive pill, used by 10.7 million women in the United States, followed by female sterilization, condoms, male sterilization, and other methods of birth control.2 Approximately 10% of women had ever used emergency contraception."

    CDC - Contraception - Reproductive Health
    "http://www.plannedparenthood.org/images/effchartimages/bcc_06.jpg

    bcc_15_Over.jpg
    Last edited by tecoyah; 05-27-12 at 01:48 PM.

  3. #193
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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
    ...Uh...I suppose you have pertinent data to back up the "Ineffective" claim, though I doubt it:

    "Contraception

    In the United States, almost half of all pregnancies are unintended.1 Yet, several safe and highly effective methods of contraception (birth control) are available to prevent unintended pregnancy. Since 2000, several new methods of birth control have become available in the United States, including the levonorgestrel-releasing intrauterine system, the hormonal contraceptive patch, the hormonal contraceptive ring, the hormonal implant, a 91-day regimen of oral contraceptives, two new barrier methods, and a new form of female sterilization. Learn more about the types of birth control available.

    Most women of reproductive age in the United States use birth control. Between 2006–2008, 99% of women who had ever had sexual intercourse had used at least one method of birth control; however, 7.3% of women who were currently at risk of unintended pregnancy were not using a contraceptive method.2 The most popular method of birth control was the oral contraceptive pill, used by 10.7 million women in the United States, followed by female sterilization, condoms, male sterilization, and other methods of birth control.2 Approximately 10% of women had ever used emergency contraception."

    CDC - Contraception - Reproductive Health
    "http://www.plannedparenthood.org/images/effchartimages/bcc_06.jpg

    bcc_15_Over.jpg
    You suppose I have pertinent data, but then you doubt it...

    Since you doubt it, before we even engage in conversation, there is no point in involving you in the conversation. No point in me trying work through your bias.
    “Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.”
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  4. #194
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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Ok, I think I see the disconnect here. Listen, the employer buys the insurance plan as a benefit, or incitement to work for a specific employer. That means that the coverages of that plan, in relation to cost, coverage limits, procedures are all decided by the employer before you are offered a particular benefit coverage. It is not required that an employer offer you any coverage at all, you realize this right?

    Anyway, that you agree to work for someone, doesn't give you the right, nor ability to dictate what it is the terms of that employment that any employer must give to you upon acceptance over what they, and you have agreed to upon initial employment. If you don't like the terms of employment, or level of benefits, then BUY YOUR OWN!, or find a different job.

    This idea that once you get hired, you somehow "own" the job, and the employer has some sort of social responsibility to give you what you want is laughable...


    j-mac
    But that's not quite true. Take wage. The employer decides on a wage to intict the employee to accept the position, but, the employer can't decide to pay less than the law allows. He may want to pay only 25 cents per hour, but the law would not allow him to even if someone would accept it. The law mandates minimum wage. Now, no law makes them hire someone, just as no law makes them offer insurance. But once done, they have to meet the law. The insurance isn't the employers after the hiring any more than the salary is. It belongs to the employee (who in a lot of cases contributes to the cost). For the employer to restrict too much is to push a belif on the employee. If the issue is cost, you might have more room. But if it is moral objection, well, you don't have the right to decide the employee's morals. Just as you can't dictate what they spend their cash on, you can't dictate what they use their insurance for based on moral objections. No clergy will be forced to use contraceptions. They are free not to based on their religious beliefs.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by Aberration View Post
    You suppose I have pertinent data, but then you doubt it...

    Since you doubt it, before we even engage in conversation, there is no point in involving you in the conversation. No point in me trying work through your bias.
    seriously?...it would seem your grasp of sarcasm is somewhat undeveloped which I suppose, makes the rest of your dismissal a good thing.

  6. #196
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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
    seriously?...it would seem your grasp of sarcasm is somewhat undeveloped which I suppose, makes the rest of your dismissal a good thing.
    No, I grasped the sarcasm. Which does nothing to change the fact you believe I do not have data. So lets just roll with your assumption, makes the discussion easier that way.
    “Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.”
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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    But that's not quite true. Take wage. The employer decides on a wage to intict the employee to accept the position, but, the employer can't decide to pay less than the law allows. He may want to pay only 25 cents per hour, but the law would not allow him to even if someone would accept it. The law mandates minimum wage.
    The attempt to paint employers as greedy, stingy, thieves of labor here is just plain silly Joe. Many jobs pay a great deal more than mandated minimum wage in order to entice qualified people to take jobs, however that doesn't mean that later at some point in that career whether through hard times at the company, or lack of performance on the part of the person hired, that the wage can not be adjusted down as long as it doesn't go below minimum wage.

    Now, no law makes them hire someone, just as no law makes them offer insurance. But once done, they have to meet the law.
    And please cite the law as it stands today that requires an employer to offer any insurance plan with demanded coverage that the employee wants....

    The insurance isn't the employers after the hiring any more than the salary is.
    Sure it is. The salary is tied to employment, and a job done for the employer. You are not paid in advance of the job. And once hired, you no more own the job, than the employer owns you. Either, or both are free to sever the relationship.

    It belongs to the employee (who in a lot of cases contributes to the cost).
    No Joe, it doesn't. Period. An employer can at any time, as it stands now, cut insurance benefits for any reason they decide is beneficial to their business.

    For the employer to restrict too much is to push a belif on the employee.
    No, you are just plain wrong. The employer, in this case the Catholic Church is not telling employees that they must live by the Catholic doctrine, they are free to purchase on their own contraceptives, abortions, or any other product, or activity that is outside the doctrine, however, you can't force them to pay for it.

    If the issue is cost, you might have more room. But if it is moral objection, well, you don't have the right to decide the employee's morals.
    No one is doing that. The Church is not restricting behavior here. Simply saying that they will not pay for it. It's called religious freedom.

    Just as you can't dictate what they spend their cash on, you can't dictate what they use their insurance for based on moral objections.
    You don't have to offer a product to someone just because they want it, if you don't agree with that product. So while use is not the issue, they could just simply fire those pushing for this. Would that make you happy?

    No clergy will be forced to use contraceptions. They are free not to based on their religious beliefs.

    Who said they would be? Ending with a strawman is not a winning strategy Joe.


    j-mac
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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Greedy. No never said, suggested, painted, hinted or argued anything about being greedy. J, please reswpond to what is actually there.

    Nor have I claimed this is a law requiring they have to offer an inusrance pay any more than there is a law requiring they offer a job. But like pay, once offered, there are requirements that have to be met. Agian, stay within the confines of what I said. And yes, insurance belongs to the employee. The employee goes to the doctor, pharmay, nurse practitioner. The employee engages the service. The employee decides who they will see and what they take advantage of. You have the system completely wrong. The employer does not say to the employee that you will use contraceptions. They don't say you will use viagra. They do not say you will have an abortion. The employee decides.

    yes, salary and insurance, all compensation, is tied to employment. It is given (look up the word compensation) to the employee for services rendered. Once that is done, it is the empoyee's.

    And yes, the Church is saying you the employee may not use your compensation as you see fit, but as we see fit. No oen argues a preist or anyone who doesn't believe something has to do something, but they are saying you may do what you believe. It is to be available for those who disagree with those beliefs. So, it is the church restricting use of the employee's compensation.

    And do look up strawman so you understand it better. The point at the end was to make a distinction between what is government infringement and what isn't. it is essential in following an argument that you know what is actually being argued.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Greedy. No never said, suggested, painted, hinted or argued anything about being greedy. J, please reswpond to what is actually there.

    Nor have I claimed this is a law requiring they have to offer an inusrance pay any more than there is a law requiring they offer a job. But like pay, once offered, there are requirements that have to be met. Agian, stay within the confines of what I said. And yes, insurance belongs to the employee. The employee goes to the doctor, pharmay, nurse practitioner. The employee engages the service. The employee decides who they will see and what they take advantage of. You have the system completely wrong. The employer does not say to the employee that you will use contraceptions. They don't say you will use viagra. They do not say you will have an abortion. The employee decides.

    yes, salary and insurance, all compensation, is tied to employment. It is given (look up the word compensation) to the employee for services rendered. Once that is done, it is the empoyee's.

    And yes, the Church is saying you the employee may not use your compensation as you see fit, but as we see fit. No oen argues a preist or anyone who doesn't believe something has to do something, but they are saying you may do what you believe. It is to be available for those who disagree with those beliefs. So, it is the church restricting use of the employee's compensation.

    And do look up strawman so you understand it better. The point at the end was to make a distinction between what is government infringement and what isn't. it is essential in following an argument that you know what is actually being argued.

    Joe, you have embarrassingly pointed out that you have a fundamental non understanding of how employment, and HR work within a free non union business. And until you start posting like you have the slightest clue of how these functions work, we are done here, and I stand by my last post to you, further, I don't think you are debating here in good faith anymore, and frankly I grow tired of your laughable parsing, and denial of what is in black and white for everyone to see here. You clearly can not discuss anymore without this subterfuge entrenched within your sentence structure. Frankly, I find it boring.

    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Catholics sue Obama over birth control mandate

    Quote Originally Posted by Aberration View Post
    Why can't we bitch about abortion? The pill and condoms have shown to be just as ineffective, while supporting unhealthy social behavior. While abstinence is always 100% effective when actually done, and it supports healthy social behavior.
    This is bull. Teen pregnancy is at the lowest its been since the 1940s because of knowledge and availability of BC options, including the pill, condoms, and other BC aids.

    U.S. teen pregnancy rates at an all-time low across all ethnicities - HealthPop - CBS News

    Abstinence is not a realistic expectation of most people, particularly those who are married. Healthy sexual relations, even when not trying to make babies, are very important to a healthy marriage. So it is better to prevent pregnancies from occurring with BC than it is to have these "healthy" marriages to suffer because either a) they have to "abstain" because they really can't afford more children or b) they end up having more babies they really can't afford.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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