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Thread: Vermont first state to ban fracking

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    Re: Vermont first state to ban fracking

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I think the point is that the identity of the chemicals potentially being pumped into Michigan's water supply is perfectly relevant to people in Michigan.
    Well obviously Halliburton isn't the operating company there. So they need to find out who the operating company is and do the research instead of crying that Halliburton doesn't operate there.

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    Re: Vermont first state to ban fracking

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I think the point is that the identity of the chemicals potentially being pumped into Michigan's water supply is perfectly relevant to people in Michigan.
    Just wondering why you and others are treating this as some type of new process. It is my understanding that drillers have been using drilling for decades. I understand that the practice seems to have expanded and greatly increased our proven reserves especially of natural gas. That being said why the new hysteria?

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    Re: Vermont first state to ban fracking

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Just wondering why you and others are treating this as some type of new process. It is my understanding that drillers have been using drilling for decades. I understand that the practice seems to have expanded and greatly increased our proven reserves especially of natural gas. That being said why the new hysteria?
    Because people need a scapegoat, and who better than the petroleum industry. Generally speaking the petroleum industry is in the tank when everyone else is doing good and, and does well when the rest of the economy is in the tank. Jealousy is huge as is an avid disregard for the vital contributions of the petroleum industry.
    Last edited by dabateman; 05-20-12 at 07:47 PM.

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    Re: Vermont first state to ban fracking

    Quote Originally Posted by dabateman View Post
    Because people need a scapegoat, and who better than the petroleum industry. Generally speaking the petroleum industry is in the tank when everyone else is doing and, and does well when the rest of the economy is in the tank. Jealousy is huge as is an avid disregard for the vital contributions of the petroleum industry.
    It just seems so strange. We could move a lot of electricity production from foreign oil or dirty coal, you would think that the greenies would be all over this. I guess their hatred for profits at American companies not to mention the royalties to farmers, the government or others lucky enough to be sitting on this natural gas.

    Wonder if Adam will have an answer to this puzzle or is this just another inane partisan political attack. Seems if Obama attacks an industry his minions need to find a way to back him up. sad really.

    In a way I hope I am wrong and Adam has a solid response.

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    Re: Vermont first state to ban fracking

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Just wondering why you and others are treating this as some type of new process. It is my understanding that drillers have been using drilling for decades. I understand that the practice seems to have expanded and greatly increased our proven reserves especially of natural gas. That being said why the new hysteria?
    You pretty much said it: the use of the process has expanded very very rapidly which obviously makes it more of a concern than it was. So ... given that there is clearly the potential for contamination in multiple phases of the process, what exactly is the objection to studying the environmental impact? Isn't it just plain common sense?
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Vermont first state to ban fracking

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    It just seems so strange. We could move a lot of electricity production from foreign oil or dirty coal, you would think that the greenies would be all over this. I guess their hatred for profits at American companies not to mention the royalties to farmers, the government or others lucky enough to be sitting on this natural gas.

    Wonder if Adam will have an answer to this puzzle or is this just another inane partisan political attack. Seems if Obama attacks an industry his minions need to find a way to back him up. sad really.

    In a way I hope I am wrong and Adam has a solid response.
    Not sure why, but you always seem to read nefarious motives and nonexistent arguments into whatever I say. AFAIK, environmentalists are primarily interested in protecting the environment. In this case that means studying the effects of fracking to make sure that it isn't causing groundwater pollution and geological instability, among other things. If the energy companies want to alleviate these fears, which they say are unjustified, they should be as open and transparent as possible. But that doesn't seem to be what's happening. Apparently Vermont was sufficiently concerned that they decided to ban the practice unless or until they received adequate assurances that it was safe.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Vermont first state to ban fracking

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    You pretty much said it: the use of the process has expanded very very rapidly which obviously makes it more of a concern than it was. So ... given that there is clearly the potential for contamination in multiple phases of the process, what exactly is the objection to studying the environmental impact? Isn't it just plain common sense?
    Studying the environmental impact and creating some common sense regulations makes sense. In fact, if you study the subject you will see that most common sense regulations already exist.

    Migration of fracture fluids: Prevented by casing and cementing of the well. Required by law.
    Water Use: Follows the same procedure as any other process that needs large amounts of water, heavily regulated.
    Produced water (flow back): Regulated by the SDWA.
    Spills: Regulated the same as any other chemical/industrial process.
    Identification of chemical additives: Follows same procedure as any other industrial process (MSDS, federal law).

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    Re: Vermont first state to ban fracking

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    Studying the environmental impact and creating some common sense regulations makes sense. In fact, if you study the subject you will see that most common sense regulations already exist.

    Migration of fracture fluids: Prevented by casing and cementing of the well. Required by law.
    Water Use: Follows the same procedure as any other process that needs large amounts of water, heavily regulated.
    Produced water (flow back): Regulated by the SDWA.
    Spills: Regulated the same as any other chemical/industrial process.
    Identification of chemical additives: Follows same procedure as any other industrial process (MSDS, federal law).
    I know for a fact that the ID of chemical additives is not mandated by current federal law, so I question whether your other claims are true.

    Obviously there is a lot that isn't known, and that is still being studied. Hydraulic fracturing in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Vermont first state to ban fracking

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Not sure why, but you always seem to read nefarious motives and nonexistent arguments into whatever I say. AFAIK, environmentalists are primarily interested in protecting the environment. In this case that means studying the effects of fracking to make sure that it isn't causing groundwater pollution and geological instability, among other things. If the energy companies want to alleviate these fears, which they say are unjustified, they should be as open and transparent as possible. But that doesn't seem to be what's happening. Apparently Vermont was sufficiently concerned that they decided to ban the practice unless or until they received adequate assurances that it was safe.

    isn't their some empirical evidence of the thousands of wells that have already been drilled. Also it is my understanding that these wells are drilled thousands of feet below the water tables that people are concerned about.

    Again, I have no problem with the EPA and other regulatory agencies making sure we are safe, that is their job. However you may agree that there are reasonable levels of assurance and then there are extreme levels of caution. Things happen all the time, should we try and regulate everything that may cause someone distress? Guess what I am saying that we need to have a common sense approach to everything we do. It seems to me that one could find a reason to shut down any activity and come up with a plausible explanation of why it was done in the name of safety.

    Another point may be a common sense balance of risk taking. If a reward is small you would want to take an appropriate level of risk. If the President and his minions place little value in being able to create more domestic energy that is not green, then it is easy to conclude any risk is a risk not worth taking.

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    Re: Vermont first state to ban fracking

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    isn't their some empirical evidence of the thousands of wells that have already been drilled. Also it is my understanding that these wells are drilled thousands of feet below the water tables that people are concerned about.
    Yes, there have been studies, including studies that show serious contamination issues. One such study was done by the University of Texas which can hardly be described as a hotbed of environmentalism or an enemy of the oil and gas industry.

    Some of the wells are deep, of course. But the thing about wells is ... the go all the way up to the surface.

    I'll post the link again as it seems you did't check it out yet. Hydraulic fracturing in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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