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Thread: Faculty leaving University in droves over statement they must sign [W:89]

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    re: Faculty leaving University in droves over statement they must sign [W:89]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    And there will likely be others to take their place.

    Freedom of choice, when kept within the law and as long as academic standards are met, is a good thing.

    It seems that leftists get panicky whenever Christians want to exercise their rights.
    As a leftist Christian, I believe the school is entirely within their rights. First, religious institutions do have the right to discriminate against employing people of other faiths. Second, many, many employers have morals clauses within their employment contracts. It so happens that a private Baptist University's morals clause is going to be a little tighter. Rightfully so. You can not condemn homosexuality or adultery at the pulpit and then turn around and so your hypocrisy by hiring one as a professor.

    This is one of the prime examples of why we want a separation of church and state; certainly the moral standard of a Baptist church (or any church) is going to be higher than the legal standard. We want that (what is objectionable is trying to make law out of moral standards). We have to respect the right of this university to be true to itself and insist on that higher standard, which is to hire only practicing God-fearing Baptists.

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    re: Faculty leaving University in droves over statement they must sign [W:89]

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    As a leftist Christian, I believe the school is entirely within their rights. First, religious institutions do have the right to discriminate against employing people of other faiths. Second, many, many employers have morals clauses within their employment contracts. It so happens that a private Baptist University's morals clause is going to be a little tighter. Rightfully so. You can not condemn homosexuality or adultery at the pulpit and then turn around and so your hypocrisy by hiring one as a professor.

    This is one of the prime examples of why we want a separation of church and state; certainly the moral standard of a Baptist church (or any church) is going to be higher than the legal standard. We want that (what is objectionable is trying to make law out of moral standards). We have to respect the right of this university to be true to itself and insist on that higher standard, which is to hire only practicing God-fearing Baptists.
    I think the problem comes with implementing these rules after the fact. Which is what happened in this case.

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    re: Faculty leaving University in droves over statement they must sign [W:89]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    It seems that there ought to be an extension of Godwin's Law, that applies to gratuitous comparisons with the Taliban and other instances of extreme radical forms of Islam. Such comparisons are certainly becoming more common these days than Hitler/Nazi references are, for the purpose that Godwin's Law was intended to address.
    If someone wraps a swastika armband on their sleeve, marches in goose-step and shouts Sieg Heil while making a flat-handed salute, it is not breaking Godwin's Law to call them a Nazi.
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    re: Faculty leaving University in droves over statement they must sign [W:89]

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    If someone wraps a swastika armband on their sleeve, marches in goose-step and shouts Sieg Heil while making a flat-handed salute, it is not breaking Godwin's Law to call them a Nazi.
    When Shorter college attendants, board members, etc start going around with guns, forcing people to abide by their religious beliefs, killing resisters, etc.
    The Christian Taliban comparison, will be acceptable.
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    re: Faculty leaving University in droves over statement they must sign [W:89]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Who's panicky? I don't care if they want to make their school more in line with their values. That's fine and completely within their rights.

    I just don't understand the need to do something like this which is very likely to lower their academic standards.
    Um, because of....
    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke
    ...they want to make their school more in line with their values.

    Do you, or do you not care about their decision to get more in line with their values?

    There are plenty of people to fill job positions.
    That is correct. So they should be fine.

    That doesn't mean there are plenty of qualified people to fill the position of college professor and who are willing to abide by the policies of the school.
    Are you saying that the only qualified collage prof's are atheists? Or are you just saying that they are all libs that would not dane to teach in an institution that want's to get back to the basics so to speak in terms of the faith that school was founded on?

    This will likely hurt the college more than it will those teachers.
    And I could say that it is equally 'likely' that it will make the collage stronger, and more desirable to attend. So you supposition is nonsense.

    And it is also likely that it will hurt their student admissions as well.
    More nonsense.

    It may not be nearly on the same level as the teachers leaving, but there are most likely students who liked those teachers and disagree with why they have to leave to the point where they may look into transferring to another, more tolerant school.
    What? Did the students forget that they were agreeing to attend a 139 year old Baptist University? My advice to the students that attend is that, go to what ever collage you wish, but make that decision based on the education provided for the money, NOT whether or not you "like" the teacher....

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    re: Faculty leaving University in droves over statement they must sign [W:89]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Um, because of....

    Do you, or do you not care about their decision to get more in line with their values?


    Are you saying that the only qualified collage prof's are atheists? Or are you just saying that they are all libs that would not dane to teach in an institution that want's to get back to the basics so to speak in terms of the faith that school was founded on?

    And I could say that it is equally 'likely' that it will make the collage stronger, and more desirable to attend. So you supposition is nonsense.

    More nonsense.

    What? Did the students forget that they were agreeing to attend a 139 year old Baptist University? My advice to the students that attend is that, go to what ever collage you wish, but make that decision based on the education provided for the money, NOT whether or not you "like" the teacher....

    j-mac


    Getting "more in line with their (Georgia Baptist) values" has only taken place following a court fight that allowed church elders and not academics to control the school and its policies. Funny how for 130 years, they got along fine and its only been since the rise of the fundie-political types that we have started to see these disputes.

    One "could say that it is equally 'likely' that it will make the collage stronger, and more desirable to attend. So you supposition is nonsense." While I could say that "you(sic)" supposition is wrong and biased toward supporting whatever those who you agree with politically would do in any and all instances, while at the same time actually making the "collage(sic)" weaker academically, unwilling to discuss controversial subjects in any shape, fashion, or form that does not mesh with the 'accepted' ideology.

    As noted in the quote, the school is 139 years old. The change in doctrinal enforcement occurred in October 2011. Were the students and faculty supposed to be able to read the future? Isn't that against one of those biblical laws? Well it is, unless you are a 'chosen prophet'
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
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    re: Faculty leaving University in droves over statement they must sign [W:89]

    Quote Originally Posted by dabateman View Post
    I think the problem comes with implementing these rules after the fact. Which is what happened in this case.
    Still within the rights of a private institution. Not much different than a Company re-writing its employee handbook, except this is a bit of that on steroids. However, I find no problem with a Baptist institution insisting that its doctrine be followed on and off the field.

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    re: Faculty leaving University in droves over statement they must sign [W:89]

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Faculty leaving University in droves over statement they must sign


    A small Baptist school in Georgia has recently required its faculty members to sign a statement that would cause them to swear to behaving in a certain way



    One of those who has not resigned is the librarian, Mr Wilson. He's gay and he crossed out the line "I reject as acceptable all sexual activity not in agreement with the Bible, including, but not limited to, premarital sex, adultery, and homosexuality." when he signed the doctrinal behaviour statement. He does not expect to keep his position at the school and has already sent his resume to several other colleges.

    The policy also discriminates against gay Americans. But in Georgia, it is legal for employers to discriminate against gays and lesbians. In February, representatives in Georgia voted to table a bill that would have extended protections to its lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender citizens.
    Baptist University's Anti-Gay Pledge Causes Faculty To Quit In Droves - Careers Articles

    It'll be interesting to see what kind of graduates they produce in the future. They may be within their rights but they've also limited their choices for hiring strong educators.


    I would chat with her when I'm feeling particularly snarky, but I wouldn't ever call her on the phone.

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    re: Faculty leaving University in droves over statement they must sign [W:89]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Um, because of....
    Because they just lost a large number of teachers because of a policy issue. They also have students who support those teachers and may just look for another college come next term. This is a double blow against them because now they need to find new teachers, who are willing to abide by their standards completely, and they may have to also worry about less money from students. Having a lower budget when you are searching to replace employees is not going to be a good thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Do you, or do you not care about their decision to get more in line with their values?
    I don't believe it was necessary and that it will hurt them and their students' education.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    That is correct. So they should be fine.
    Except for the rest of that point. There are not a lot of college level professors looking for jobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Are you saying that the only qualified collage prof's are atheists? Or are you just saying that they are all libs that would not dane to teach in an institution that want's to get back to the basics so to speak in terms of the faith that school was founded on?
    On the contrary, many of those teachers were actually Baptists. They say so on their site explaining their decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    And I could say that it is equally 'likely' that it will make the collage stronger, and more desirable to attend. So you supposition is nonsense.
    It is not equally likely to make the college stronger if they are at risk of losing their accreditation or even just the quality of their teaching. College is mainly about teaching students academics, not about ensuring the staff follow certain religious beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    More nonsense.
    Not nonsense. There are many younger people who believe that getting a good education is more important than a University, even a religious one, from keeping their staff from believing as they wish and doing things that have no impact on their school or its reputation.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    What? Did the students forget that they were agreeing to attend a 139 year old Baptist University? My advice to the students that attend is that, go to what ever collage you wish, but make that decision based on the education provided for the money, NOT whether or not you "like" the teacher....
    Many of the students did not sign up to attend a school where their teachers are forced to give up their own values or hide just to be able to work. This "Lifestyle Statement" is a very new thing and never before existed in this way for this school.

    If the students feel that they are not going to get the same level of education as they were before due to this or their parents feel this way, then it could certainly affect the students' decision to stay at or even go to that school.
    Last edited by roguenuke; 05-20-12 at 01:04 PM.
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    re: Faculty leaving University in droves over statement they must sign [W:89]

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Getting "more in line with their (Georgia Baptist) values" has only taken place following a court fight that allowed church elders and not academics to control the school and its policies. Funny how for 130 years, they got along fine and its only been since the rise of the fundie-political types that we have started to see these disputes.

    See, I view this in a different way. For some time now, as an example Notre Dame has been struggling with the secular representation sitting on their board of directors as well, as I suspect many of these religious based institutions of higher learning are finding increasing secular involvement is attempting to change their fundamental structure.

    No real surprise that in this time of Obama's war on religion, that instances like this would crop up.

    j-mac
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