German police shoot 36 bullets total at suspected criminals in 2011

[RabidAlpaca]

Here's an article with the breakdown of rounds fired by German police in 2011:

85 rounds fired: Article
- 49 Warning shots
- 36 Bullets fired at suspected criminals
- 15 suspected criminals injured
- 6 suspected criminals killed

Even per capita, their rate of violent crimes is less than 1/4th of what it is in the US. What is it about their culture / government, that makes them inherently less violent?

I certainly wouldn't say that it's their restrictive gun policy, because Switzerland has more guns per head than any country in europe, and still has 1/2 the violent crimes per capita of Germany, or 1/8th of America.

 

[Jredbaron96]

The Germans know how to keep their **** together.

 

[RadicalModerate]

Here's an article with the breakdown of rounds fired by German police in 2011:

85 rounds fired: Article
- 49 Warning shots
- 36 Bullets fired at suspected criminals
- 15 suspected criminals injured
- 6 suspected criminals killed

Even per capita, their rate of violent crimes is less than 1/4th of what it is in the US. What is it about their culture / government, that makes them inherently less violent?

I certainly wouldn't say that it's their restrictive gun policy, because Switzerland has more guns per head than any country in europe, and still has 1/2 the violent crimes per capita of Germany, or 1/8th of America.

Because we're a stupid country with anger issues and an inferiority complex.

 

[ric27]

Here's an article with the breakdown of rounds fired by German police in 2011:

85 rounds fired: Article
- 49 Warning shots
- 36 Bullets fired at suspected criminals
- 15 suspected criminals injured
- 6 suspected criminals killed

Even per capita, their rate of violent crimes is less than 1/4th of what it is in the US. What is it about their culture / government, that makes them inherently less violent?

I certainly wouldn't say that it's their restrictive gun policy, because Switzerland has more guns per head than any country in europe, and still has 1/2 the violent crimes per capita of Germany, or 1/8th of America.

An important lesson here:

No warning shots! Ever! You are either justified in firing on a threat or not.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

An important lesson here:

No warning shots! Ever! You are either justified in firing on a threat or not.

That's not true. Why shoot an actual shot at a suspected criminal if a warning shot could cause him to surrender? The shot after a warning shot is statistically meant to kill.

This however doesn't have an effect on the actual topic, why is their society less prone to violence?

 

[VanceMack]

did you ever stop to consider it might not be the police but rather the criminal element?

 

[RabidAlpaca]

did you ever stop to consider it might not be the police but rather the criminal element?

That's exactly what I asked, why is it that their society has inherently less crime than ours?

 

[ric27]

That's not true. Why shoot an actual shot at a suspected criminal if a warning shot could cause him to surrender? The shot after a warning shot is statistically meant to kill.

Wrong....Shots fired into the air or ground in an attempt to cause a fleeing suspect to stop or surrender are a danger to the officer as well as innocent persons

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Wrong....Shots fired into the air or ground in an attempt to cause a fleeing suspect to stop or surrender are a danger to the officer as well as innocent persons

You're missing the topic of the thread, please get on topic.

 

[Goshin]

That's exactly what I asked, why is it that their society has inherently less crime than ours?

Comparing crime stats between nations is a difficult thing, with many opportunities for error. Laws and what is considered crime and what is serious or violent crime vary, for one. Reporting and recording vary, for another. Cultural differences are huge.

I've studied the issue of international crime comparisons and the leading causes of violence seem to be:

1. Government that is either lax, corrupt, excessively harsh or excessively lax in keeping the peace.
2. Poverty and drug abuse.
3. Factionalism: gangs, tribal violence, racial or ethnic violence, rebels vs enforcers, etc.

The US is a huge and diverse nation with a high degree of heterogeneity. We have innumerable subcultures and ethnic groupings, along with a certain level of animosity between many of these groups. We also have a rather serious drug problem and problems with lots of gangs and cartels fighting over control of the drug trade.

I don't have stats readily on hand, but I'd bet that somewhere between 50-70% of our murders, police shooting and serious crime are in some way related to drugs, drug trade and/or gangs.

I don't really know enough about Germany to comment with any certainty, but I suspect they are more culturally homogenous than we are, and may not have as severe a problem with drugs and gangs.

:shrug:

 

[Goshin]

Wrong....Shots fired into the air or ground in an attempt to cause a fleeing suspect to stop or surrender are a danger to the officer as well as innocent persons

I agree and in the US "warning shots" are typically against proceedure, but other countries do things differently.

 

[Connery]

Even per capita, their rate of violent crimes is less than 1/4th of what it is in the US. What is it about their culture / government, that makes them inherently less violent?

I do not beleive the rate of crime, as you suggest, is necessarily indicative of how violent country is, rather it may address the system by which a crime is processed, viewed, reported, investigated and prosecuted. It appears the rates in Germany point more to how the system works as opposed to how violent the population is.

The respective legal systems are different, Germany has a "Civil Law" system and has a uniform federal criminal code with state administered police and prosecution and the US has a "Common Law" system and locally administered police and prosecution. The aforementioned dictates rights and procedures in prosecuting a crime. In Germany, "the prosecutor is not an elected official, but a civil servant operating within a hierarchical system. There is no death penalty, and sentences for all crimes both major and minor are considerably lower than in the United States."

There are also major differences between German and American concepts of police and prosecution. The American prosecutor has little control over police investigations, but almost unlimited discretion as to whether a particular crime should be charged and prosecuted. German law is almost the exact reverse. The German prosecutor has formal responsibility for investigation, and the police are considered to be a subordinate helping agency.

The number of serious crimes reported to the police per 100,000 persons is much higher in the United States than in Germany. Five murders and forcible rapes and three or four robberies and felony assaults are reported in the United States per 100,000 population for every one in Germany.

American police have wide discretion in investigating crimes and may investigate a suspect without any proof whatsoever that the suspect has committed a crime. German law is more restrictive on the police. German police must have "suspicion" in order to investigate, and the prosecutor must have "sufficient suspicion" in order to file a charge.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/gap.pdf

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Comparing crime stats between nations is a difficult thing, with many opportunities for error. Laws and what is considered crime and what is serious or violent crime vary, for one. Reporting and recording vary, for another. Cultural differences are huge.

I've studied the issue of international crime comparisons and the leading causes of violence seem to be:

1. Government that is either lax, corrupt, excessively harsh or excessively lax in keeping the peace.
2. Poverty and drug abuse.
3. Factionalism: gangs, tribal violence, racial or ethnic violence, rebels vs enforcers, etc.

The US is a huge and diverse nation with a high degree of heterogeneity. We have innumerable subcultures and ethnic groupings, along with a certain level of animosity between many of these groups. We also have a rather serious drug problem and problems with lots of gangs and cartels fighting over control of the drug trade.

I don't have stats readily on hand, but I'd bet that somewhere between 50-70% of our murders, police shooting and serious crime are in some way related to drugs, drug trade and/or gangs.

I don't really know enough about Germany to comment with any certainty, but I suspect they are more culturally homogenous than we are, and may not have as severe a problem with drugs and gangs.

:shrug:

That would definitely make sense. I've noticed you can always be counted on to provide a reasoned, intellectual argument.

 

[VanceMack]

Even though Germany is many years older than the US, it might help their 'statistics' that their population got a 'do over' back in the 40s...and they are also much less diversified as a people.

 

[Manc Skipper]

36! What a bunch of dangerous cowboys! They're out of control!

I've yet to see any rational explanation for the oft trotted-out excuse that diversity in a population is a direct driver of violence in that population.

 

[Goshin]

36! What a bunch of dangerous cowboys! They're out of control!

I've yet to see any rational explanation for the oft trotted-out excuse that diversity in a population is a direct driver of violence in that population.

It depends on exactly what kind of "diversity" we're talking about.


For instance, in many parts of the world Sunni and Shia don't get along at all, to put it mildly.

Many parts of Africa still suffer from inter-tribal warfare and tribally-motivated crime.

Some ethnic groups have long-standing animosities.... Serbs and Albanians, for instance.

When you have a common language and a common culture, many misunderstandings and unintentional offenses can be avoided or dealt with short of violence. When, OTOH you have two or more different cultures living in proximity with language/communication problems and perhaps very different ideas of what constitutes "norms and values" or what is a mortal offense, the opportunity for serious trouble increases. When those differing cultures (or subcultures) are also in competition for scarce resources (jobs, prime drug connections and sales territories, whatever) the opportunity for violence again increases.

The more reason you have to view your neighbor as "alien" rather than "like me", the easier it is to justify violence against him, especially if you're competing for scarce resources.

Where the government is relatively ineffective at keeping the peace fairly, or is corrupted, this compounds the problem... if poverty is the norm, that compounds the problem further.

At least, that is what my studies on this topic have lead me to conclude.

It isn't that "diversity" itself is the problem, so much as a contributing factor when you already have violence-promoting factors in place. Poverty and competition for scant resources tends to cause humans to divide themselves into groups to pursue those resources.... these may be gangs, tribes, or political factions. Under these conditions, splitting along ethnic lines is very commonplace... there aren't very many "multi-cultural" street gangs for instance.

 

[Manc Skipper]

The German state is far from being a monoculture, with three million people of Turkish origin forming their largest ethnic minority, and groups of Italians, refugees from Yugoslavia and former German areas in Eastern Europe, not least the ex-GDR. It's only since the millenium that the law has changed regarding gastarbeiter or "guest worker" status. Since WW2 immigrant workers, mainly Turkish Muslims, But also from places as diverse as Cuba, Mozambique, Vietnam, and Tunisia were given work permits with no right of residence or German nationality.

 

[American]

Here's an article with the breakdown of rounds fired by German police in 2011:

85 rounds fired: Article
- 49 Warning shots
- 36 Bullets fired at suspected criminals
- 15 suspected criminals injured
- 6 suspected criminals killed

Even per capita, their rate of violent crimes is less than 1/4th of what it is in the US. What is it about their culture / government, that makes them inherently less violent?

I certainly wouldn't say that it's their restrictive gun policy, because Switzerland has more guns per head than any country in europe, and still has 1/2 the violent crimes per capita of Germany, or 1/8th of America.

The Germans aren't very good shots, are they?

 

[RabidAlpaca]

The Germans aren't very good shots, are they?

Looking at their numbers they're most assuredly better shots than our cops are.

 

[American]

I agree and in the US "warning shots" are typically against proceedure, but other countries do things differently.

As a non-LEO, I think of several reasons that warning shots are stupid and dangerous.

 

[Blue_State]

Here's an article with the breakdown of rounds fired by German police in 2011:

85 rounds fired: Article
- 49 Warning shots
- 36 Bullets fired at suspected criminals
- 15 suspected criminals injured
- 6 suspected criminals killed

Even per capita, their rate of violent crimes is less than 1/4th of what it is in the US. What is it about their culture / government, that makes them inherently less violent?

I certainly wouldn't say that it's their restrictive gun policy, because Switzerland has more guns per head than any country in europe, and still has 1/2 the violent crimes per capita of Germany, or 1/8th of America.

The germans are taught responsibility. We are not. Look how the handle beer in Germany. It is treated as a beverage. Now look in America. We treat beer as if it is taboo.

Responsibilty is taught at a young age. We miss the boat on that everytime.

 

[Meathead]

The germans are taught responsibility. We are not. Look how the handle beer in Germany. It is treated as a beverage. Now look in America. We treat beer as if it is taboo.

Responsibilty is taught at a young age. We miss the boat on that everytime.

It would be interesting to extend your argument to countries like Mexico, Colombia, and South Africa. They seem to be even worse at catching boats.

 

[Mach]

They are saving up ammunition for another shot at world domination, obviously.

For such a broad statistic, it's the experts typically suggest we refer to trends rather than going in circles with apples/oranges comparisons. I think a lot of what is mentioned is what contributes to that, but probably a lot more on top of that.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

As a non-LEO, I think of several reasons that warning shots are stupid and dangerous.

Perhaps I just see it from a soldier's perspective. Let me first make clear that in any situation, regardless of the circumstances, if I or any of my comrades are seriously threatened, I will always shoot to kill first and ask questions later.

However, with that being said, there are levels of escalation of force. When I was in afghanistan, a warning shot could often show someone that you mean business without killing a local, which would only make the people turn further against you. Such a situation would be if a group of unarmed civilians were getting a little too aggressive in their ranges or postures to us, getting grabby, or throwing rocks.

I can say it is certainly less of a big deal if a soldier gets a little hasty to wax an afghan than it is for a police officer to wax an aggressive citizen.

All I'm trying to say is: There are SOME instances where warning shots can be helpful.

 

[VanceMack]

They are saving up ammunition for another shot at world domination, obviously.

For such a broad statistic, it's the experts typically suggest we refer to trends rather than going in circles with apples/oranges comparisons. I think a lot of what is mentioned is what contributes to that, but probably a lot more on top of that.

Actually...true...if you count their total history...Germany makes the rest of the world look like pikers when it comes to 'gang violence'