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Thread: German police shoot 36 bullets total at suspected criminals in 2011

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    Re: German police shoot 36 bullets total at suspected criminals in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Wrong....Shots fired into the air or ground in an attempt to cause a fleeing suspect to stop or surrender are a danger to the officer as well as innocent persons

    I agree and in the US "warning shots" are typically against proceedure, but other countries do things differently.

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    Re: German police shoot 36 bullets total at suspected criminals in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post

    Even per capita, their rate of violent crimes is less than 1/4th of what it is in the US. What is it about their culture / government, that makes them inherently less violent?
    I do not beleive the rate of crime, as you suggest, is necessarily indicative of how violent country is, rather it may address the system by which a crime is processed, viewed, reported, investigated and prosecuted. It appears the rates in Germany point more to how the system works as opposed to how violent the population is.

    The respective legal systems are different, Germany has a "Civil Law" system and has a uniform federal criminal code with state administered police and prosecution and the US has a "Common Law" system and locally administered police and prosecution. The aforementioned dictates rights and procedures in prosecuting a crime. In Germany, "the prosecutor is not an elected official, but a civil servant operating within a hierarchical system. There is no death penalty, and sentences for all crimes both major and minor are considerably lower than in the United States."
    There are also major differences between German and American concepts of police and prosecution. The American prosecutor has little control over police investigations, but almost unlimited discretion as to whether a particular crime should be charged and prosecuted. German law is almost the exact reverse. The German prosecutor has formal responsibility for investigation, and the police are considered to be a subordinate helping agency.

    The number of serious crimes reported to the police per 100,000 persons is much higher in the United States than in Germany. Five murders and forcible rapes and three or four robberies and felony assaults are reported in the United States per 100,000 population for every one in Germany.

    American police have wide discretion in investigating crimes and may investigate a suspect without any proof whatsoever that the suspect has committed a crime. German law is more restrictive on the police. German police must have "suspicion" in order to investigate, and the prosecutor must have "sufficient suspicion" in order to file a charge.
    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/gap.pdf

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    Re: German police shoot 36 bullets total at suspected criminals in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Comparing crime stats between nations is a difficult thing, with many opportunities for error. Laws and what is considered crime and what is serious or violent crime vary, for one. Reporting and recording vary, for another. Cultural differences are huge.

    I've studied the issue of international crime comparisons and the leading causes of violence seem to be:

    1. Government that is either lax, corrupt, excessively harsh or excessively lax in keeping the peace.
    2. Poverty and drug abuse.
    3. Factionalism: gangs, tribal violence, racial or ethnic violence, rebels vs enforcers, etc.

    The US is a huge and diverse nation with a high degree of heterogeneity. We have innumerable subcultures and ethnic groupings, along with a certain level of animosity between many of these groups. We also have a rather serious drug problem and problems with lots of gangs and cartels fighting over control of the drug trade.

    I don't have stats readily on hand, but I'd bet that somewhere between 50-70% of our murders, police shooting and serious crime are in some way related to drugs, drug trade and/or gangs.

    I don't really know enough about Germany to comment with any certainty, but I suspect they are more culturally homogenous than we are, and may not have as severe a problem with drugs and gangs.

    That would definitely make sense. I've noticed you can always be counted on to provide a reasoned, intellectual argument.
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    Re: German police shoot 36 bullets total at suspected criminals in 2011

    Even though Germany is many years older than the US, it might help their 'statistics' that their population got a 'do over' back in the 40s...and they are also much less diversified as a people.

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    Re: German police shoot 36 bullets total at suspected criminals in 2011

    36! What a bunch of dangerous cowboys! They're out of control!

    I've yet to see any rational explanation for the oft trotted-out excuse that diversity in a population is a direct driver of violence in that population.
    Last edited by Manc Skipper; 05-14-12 at 02:33 PM.
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    Re: German police shoot 36 bullets total at suspected criminals in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    36! What a bunch of dangerous cowboys! They're out of control!

    I've yet to see any rational explanation for the oft trotted-out excuse that diversity in a population is a direct driver of violence in that population.

    It depends on exactly what kind of "diversity" we're talking about.


    For instance, in many parts of the world Sunni and Shia don't get along at all, to put it mildly.

    Many parts of Africa still suffer from inter-tribal warfare and tribally-motivated crime.

    Some ethnic groups have long-standing animosities.... Serbs and Albanians, for instance.

    When you have a common language and a common culture, many misunderstandings and unintentional offenses can be avoided or dealt with short of violence. When, OTOH you have two or more different cultures living in proximity with language/communication problems and perhaps very different ideas of what constitutes "norms and values" or what is a mortal offense, the opportunity for serious trouble increases. When those differing cultures (or subcultures) are also in competition for scarce resources (jobs, prime drug connections and sales territories, whatever) the opportunity for violence again increases.

    The more reason you have to view your neighbor as "alien" rather than "like me", the easier it is to justify violence against him, especially if you're competing for scarce resources.

    Where the government is relatively ineffective at keeping the peace fairly, or is corrupted, this compounds the problem... if poverty is the norm, that compounds the problem further.

    At least, that is what my studies on this topic have lead me to conclude.

    It isn't that "diversity" itself is the problem, so much as a contributing factor when you already have violence-promoting factors in place. Poverty and competition for scant resources tends to cause humans to divide themselves into groups to pursue those resources.... these may be gangs, tribes, or political factions. Under these conditions, splitting along ethnic lines is very commonplace... there aren't very many "multi-cultural" street gangs for instance.
    Last edited by Goshin; 05-14-12 at 03:31 PM.

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    Re: German police shoot 36 bullets total at suspected criminals in 2011

    The German state is far from being a monoculture, with three million people of Turkish origin forming their largest ethnic minority, and groups of Italians, refugees from Yugoslavia and former German areas in Eastern Europe, not least the ex-GDR. It's only since the millenium that the law has changed regarding gastarbeiter or "guest worker" status. Since WW2 immigrant workers, mainly Turkish Muslims, But also from places as diverse as Cuba, Mozambique, Vietnam, and Tunisia were given work permits with no right of residence or German nationality.
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    Re: German police shoot 36 bullets total at suspected criminals in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Here's an article with the breakdown of rounds fired by German police in 2011:

    85 rounds fired: Article
    - 49 Warning shots
    - 36 Bullets fired at suspected criminals
    - 15 suspected criminals injured
    - 6 suspected criminals killed

    Even per capita, their rate of violent crimes is less than 1/4th of what it is in the US. What is it about their culture / government, that makes them inherently less violent?

    I certainly wouldn't say that it's their restrictive gun policy, because Switzerland has more guns per head than any country in europe, and still has 1/2 the violent crimes per capita of Germany, or 1/8th of America.
    The Germans aren't very good shots, are they?
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    Re: German police shoot 36 bullets total at suspected criminals in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    The Germans aren't very good shots, are they?
    Looking at their numbers they're most assuredly better shots than our cops are.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: German police shoot 36 bullets total at suspected criminals in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I agree and in the US "warning shots" are typically against proceedure, but other countries do things differently.
    As a non-LEO, I think of several reasons that warning shots are stupid and dangerous.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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