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Thread: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

  1. #81
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Creative genius (a level of creativity that runs far above the norm) is not something that can necessarily be taught. It can be cultivated in many ways, including but not limited to education. Few people truly possess creative genius to the extent that they can surmount a college education. Andres Serrano is an exception, not the norm.
    I know a few people like that, some with degrees, some without, and I believe that it is as you say, genius is cultivated and nurtured, not taught.
    One thing for sure, the few who rate the label are usually grabbed up by industry while still in High school or their early years in college.
    It would be nice if we had a better way of identifying that kind of talent earlier.

    BTW, I was identified as smart early on, but smart isn't enough. I was a fast learner, but a lot of it didn't stick in my brain for long. A poor memory is not conducive to holding on to multiple thoughts in order to come up with new ideas. I have been a little innovative, tho. Too bad my boss didn't tell me he was trying to get MORE people while I was showing his boss how we could do the job with less people.
    Last edited by UtahBill; 05-14-12 at 03:02 PM.
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by differentDEM View Post
    I for one can attest that College has ruined my life...
    What, it turned you into a liberal?
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Perhaps another part of the problem is supply and demand in a global society. When talking about our best universities there is worldwide competition for spots regardless of cost it seems. So a school that charges nearly 60K for tuition room and board still gets to reject 90+% of applicants.

    On the other end of the spectrum, what happened to free or very inexpensive state and city universities. NYC once had a great university system that I think was a key reason for the city's greatness.
    Supply-and-demand is what I mean when I say it ties into the increasing availability of student loans. Not discounting the impact of foreign admissions, but that's a lesser part, I think. When student loans became absurdly easy to obtain, demand increased in lockstep, and hence so did tuition.
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  4. #84
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by dontworrybehappy View Post
    While I agree with what you say, then I must question why go to college? If I can get my foot in the door 4-6 years earlier than someone chasing a degree that won't even help them in the company, as they'd start at the bottom like I am, why bother? Get the head start, and by the time they get out with a degree, tons of student debt and no experience, you have 4-6 years of experience under your belt and are much more employable and "worth more" to the company, don't you think?
    That's the way it used to be. In 1955, one third of the CEOs had not gone to college. But then the aristocracy took over, in revolt against uppity people rising in class. Birth, not worth. College is designed for rich kids living off an allowance; others have to sacrifice their youth and do permanent damage to their personal lives and personalities. Now you have to crawl up the ladder on your hands and knees, licking the boots of those who go up it easily.
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    There are many fields where college just isn't necessary. I think there should be more technical colleges which specifically teach hands-on skills for people who aren't going into a high-end career. That said though, it should never be an either/or proposition. You shouldn't make a decision between working or going to school, you should *ALWAYS* do both. Maybe if people had to work through college, they wouldn't have as much time to get drunk and party.
    Or to study. Pressed for time and energy, they take shortcuts to learning, cramming for exams and soon forgetting the material they get false credit for learning.
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
    We won't live free until the 1% live in fear.
    Hey, richboys! Imagine the boot of democracy stomping on your faces, forever.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    In many cases, firms don't have the luxury of rigorously testing their job applicants. In part, such testing can be cost-prohibitive. In part, testing has been outlawed, because "tests" had been used as an instrument to discriminate against members of minority groups, some of whom were eminently qualified for the actual requirements of the positions in question. Hence, a college degree serves as an instrument that attests to a person's possessing a given level of skills and knowledge, albeit an imperfect one.

    On the point of self-teaching, I agree with you. Any reasonably intelligent and highly-motivated person can advance his/her knowledge in the fashion you describe. Unfortunately, an inadequate number of people are motivated to the extent that such an approach is viable to the point where firms would look less to a college degree.
    Instead of paying taxes, corporations should use that money to pay high school graduates to learn what the business needs. This whole set up is an insult to intelligence. This fear of testing being racially biased is just an excuse to bully people to go through the indentured servitude of the college experience. Fat cats want mice and they get bitten eventually by hiring no-talent collegian brown-noses. Only superior minds deserve college level jobs and the high test scorers should be treated the way the superior athletes recruited for college sports are treated. Also, retirees could teach the natural talent pool what they need to learn for the job instead of relying on the swamp of educated idiots. College is for people too dumb to learn anything on their own. It is work without pay, which gives no indication of how someone will work for pay. Replace this dysfunctional and obsolete irrelevancy with paid professional training. You'll get the most talented people and motivate them to study. Working without pay is nothing to be proud of and should not be rewarded.
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
    We won't live free until the 1% live in fear.
    Hey, richboys! Imagine the boot of democracy stomping on your faces, forever.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by PrometheusBound View Post
    College is for people too dumb to learn anything on their own. It is work without pay, which gives no indication of how someone will work for pay. Replace this dysfunctional and obsolete irrelevancy with paid professional training. You'll get the most talented people and motivate them to study. Working without pay is nothing to be proud of and should not be rewarded.
    I have to somewhat argue that. There are certain things that one just cannot no matter how motivated they are, learn on their own. For example, I just took a class called Research Methods in which we learned how to properly do quantitative studies. There was a lot of information in that course that I wouldn't have been able to learn on my own. Other examples are law and medicine, where you need to go to college. Would you like to have a person with no medical degree operating on you?
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    There are certain things that one just cannot no matter how motivated they are, learn on their own. For example, I just took a class called Research Methods in which we learned how to properly do quantitative studies. There was a lot of information in that course that I wouldn't have been able to learn on my own.
    You couldn't have just bought the course text and learned it on your own?
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    You couldn't have just bought the course text and learned it on your own?
    Textbooks only cover so much - some classes incorporate the real life experiences of the instructor and participation activities (like field trips and special events).

    Eventhough I've become miffed with the lack of quality for some of my courses - I can't deny that having a classroom environment that centers around discussion and such things is also extremely helpful.

    If you learn by the book you'll only know what's in the book - if the professor/college takes it seriously you'll learn much more.
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 05-14-12 at 07:42 PM.
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by YoungConserv View Post
    Ill let you on a secret a big reason that we have huge loan debt is because we as students are being told to study what we want not what we can get a job in. I started as an anthropology major then realized there where no jobs in that so i switched to Environmental studies and business to take advantage of the shale boom in texas now i will be debt free in 6 years after graduation next year. We have forgotten why we go to college it is to become more marketable not for elective hobbys.
    Clearly, for most people, studying what may get you a decent job is rarely the same thing as studying what you're interested in.

    However, if students are to be expected to go to college primarily for the sake of their future employers, then employers should be paying the tuition, not the students, as the employer is the primary beneficiary of state-and-student-subsidized vocational training.

    I'm hard-pressed to think of any other context in which the student is expected to train and study primarily for the benefit of others...and yet the student is required to pay most of the costs of such training and study. At least if you're a monk or other kind of ascetic, some larger institution or community provides resources for you. Students (and their families), however, pay through the nose...and then they're supposed to ignore their own interests and cater their studies to what employers want on top of all that?!?

    This actually isn't so hard to track: simply tax the hell out of any business which requires its job applicants to have college degrees, and earmark those taxes for supporting public colleges and universities. If they don't want to get hit with that tax, then maybe they might consider no longer listing a completely irrelevant degree requirement for a god damn entry level office position (I was unemployed for about eight months recently, and I regularly encountered such postings).

    This could go either way, depending on one's values: we can drop the pretense and let the current system -- which is already overwhelmingly geared in favor of the interests of employers -- be openly identified as job training (in which case employers should pick up the tab)... or we could renew the classical notions of higher education as a real and substantive venue for exploration of the arts and sciences, incorporating it into a larger human drive to expand our knowledge and capabilities.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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