A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

lpast said:

Everyone needs a college education today...there are no more decent labor jobs for HS graduates...so now a 4 yr college degree is like a HS diploma because most everyone gets one now...so now to stand out you have to have a masters or be trained in something specific...like accting....how many more lawyers can the USA support gahhh....

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I got to wondering about that. It used to be that having a bachelor's degree was a big deal, now it seems like everyone has one. Seems the figure is just over 30%.

[h=1]Over 30 Percent of Americans Now Hold a Bachelor's Degree [/h]

By Caralee Adams on February 24, 2012 11:29 AM



The proportion of Americans with college degrees has reached a new high — 30.4 percent of the U.S. population over the age of 25 has at least a bachelor's degree, according to data released by the U.S. Census Bureau. In 2001, there were 26.4 percent in this age group with this level of education.

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Which raises the questions: What is that other 70% doing? How many of the 30% are out of work? and, of course, how many lawyers do we need? (but you already asked that one).

It is absurd to charge people for education. It's a totally ridiculous policy on every level. The more people who get educated, the better our economy will do. That is a benefit to all of us, not just the person that gets the education, so all of us need to chip in. For somebody not to go to college because they can't afford it is just economic waste. Virtually every other first world country has figured this out...

teamosil said:

It is absurd to charge people for education. It's a totally ridiculous policy on every level. The more people who get educated, the better our economy will do. That is a benefit to all of us, not just the person that gets the education, so all of us need to chip in. For somebody not to go to college because they can't afford it is just economic waste. Virtually every other first world country has figured this out...

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Several years ago, my daughter, then maybe 9 or so, made a comment that things like apples should be free. My son that is 2 years older, actually said to her "that is stupid, someone picks the apples, do you think they would pick apples to give them away for free? Would you go out there and do that?"

So an at the time 11 year old got what it seem so many others don't. Free education? Who's paying for the buildings, who's paying for the supplies, the power and water for the facility, who is paying for those that teach? Yes, a socialist fantasy land.

Aunt Spiker said:

Yeah - I agree here. For some certification testing I don't think that a degree shoudl necessarily be required.

But - just to clarify my issue with Liberal Arts nd other such 'light weight' degrees . . . the problem is that they're not focused. You'll learn a lot - and some of the knowledge can be very useful, sure. . . but it doesn't prepare you for anything except to be a jack of all trades. Degree Requirements | Bachelor of Arts in Liberal Studies

Looking at that - the degree requirements to get the degree at my university: it's like the core-cirriculum extended out over 4 years. It's not a degree - it's just being a 4-year freshman. . . this was designed to satisfy the belief that 'any degree is better than nothing'

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Our founders were liberal arts students. Some became lawyers later on.

Arbo said:

Free education? Who's paying for the buildings, who's paying for the supplies, the power and water for the facility, who is paying for those that teach?

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Oh come on. Being condescending about how stupid a position you obviously know the other guy isn't taking is just sad. Obviously I am contending that we should pay for it collectively rather than individually. As I said "all of us need to chip in". You knew that, so what impact do you think it has when you pretend that you didn't understand that?

teamosil said:

It is absurd to charge people for education. It's a totally ridiculous policy on every level. The more people who get educated, the better our economy will do. That is a benefit to all of us, not just the person that gets the education, so all of us need to chip in. For somebody not to go to college because they can't afford it is just economic waste. Virtually every other first world country has figured this out...

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Not necessarily. If everyone has a degree, there will be no one to dig the ditches. There's no way that can be good for the economy, nor for our society as a whole.

teamosil said:

It is absurd to charge people for education. It's a totally ridiculous policy on every level. The more people who get educated, the better our economy will do. That is a benefit to all of us, not just the person that gets the education, so all of us need to chip in. For somebody not to go to college because they can't afford it is just economic waste. Virtually every other first world country has figured this out...

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if everyone was properly educated, the crooks on wall street, madison ave, congress, etc. would be looking for jobs. It is unfettered ignorance that allows the skimmers and scammers to prosper.

teamosil said:

Oh come on. Being condescending about how stupid a position you obviously know the other guy isn't taking is just sad. Obviously I am contending that we should pay for it collectively rather than individually. As I said "all of us need to chip in". You knew that, so what impact do you think it has when you pretend that you didn't understand that?

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You can move the goal posts to wherever you want, it doesn't change the fact that you said it is absurd to charge people for education. Meaning you obviously support free education. Meaning you want others to take care of the 'needs' of others (when in reality a college education is not a 'need'). Once again removing personal responsibility and the drive to 'work for what you want in life' from the equation. Like I said, a socialist fantasy world.

Arbo said:

You can move the goal posts to wherever you want, it doesn't change the fact that you said it is absurd to charge people for education. Meaning you obviously support free education. Meaning you want others to take care of the 'needs' of others (when in reality a college education is not a 'need'). Once again removing personal responsibility and the drive to 'work for what you want in life' from the equation. Like I said, a socialist fantasy world.

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Again- we all benefit from people getting an education, not just the person that gets the education. You're the one looking for something for nothing. You want to benefit from other people's education without chipping in.

apdst said:

Not necessarily. If everyone has a degree, there will be no one to dig the ditches. There's no way that can be good for the economy, nor for our society as a whole.

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That's what we need a guest worker program for- to fill in the jobs we leave behind.

teamosil said:

That's what we need a guest worker program for- to fill in the jobs we leave behind.

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A guest worker program didn't make this country great. You're trying to fix something that isn't broken.

apdst said:

A guest worker program didn't make this country great. You're trying to fix something that isn't broken.

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Yeah really - we have plenty of people in this country to do all of that; they just aren't always living in the areas that need them.

Forty five thousand people will graduate from American law schools this year. Only half of them will ever find a job practicing law. The average debt each of these young people incurred is $150,000. That's a poor investment. If they do find a legal job they won't make as much money as young lawyers in the past. There are now way too many lawyers.

apdst said:

A guest worker program didn't make this country great. You're trying to fix something that isn't broken.

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You're thinking in binary terms. The economy isn't just either "broken" or "working correctly"... We want to grow our GDP as fast as possible. The more people that are doing the most sophisticated work, the faster it grows. Somebody working at McDonalds adds 10 times as much to the economy as somebody picking fruit, and somebody who is working as an office assistant adds 10 times as much as somebody who is working at McDonalds. And a software programmer adds 10 times as much as the office assistant. And a chemical engineer adds 10 times as much as a software programmer. And an inventor adds 10 times as much as a chemical engineer. And a pure science researcher adds 10 times that much. Every person we can lift up one rung on that ladder makes a huge difference.

Median weekly income by education level:

No high school diploma: $451
High school: $638
2 year degree: $768
4 year degree: $1,053
Master's degree: $1,263
Phd: $1,551
Law or medical degree: $1,665

Everybody should at least get a 4 year degree in my opinion. That plays the role a high school degree used to. And at least the top 25% or so should go on to an advanced degree.

Education pays ...

teamosil said:

Again- we all benefit from people getting an education, not just the person that gets the education. You're the one looking for something for nothing. You want to benefit from other people's education without chipping in.

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Man, you spin like a top. You claim everyone having an education is good for us all. Yet have never proven such a thing. As has been pointed out to you, if everyone had a degree, the work force still needs those that don't need a degree. If say 30% of workers have a degree, and you give the other 70% a degree, how does that change the need of employers? It doesn't. The composition of what is needed in the workforce doesn't change. So what you now have is 70% of the people with a degree, paid for by the public, that will never use it, that will not get a 'better' job because of it, because there simply isn't the need in the workforce.

apdst said:

Not necessarily. If everyone has a degree, there will be no one to dig the ditches. There's no way that can be good for the economy, nor for our society as a whole.

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On the contrary, I think it would be great for ditch-diggers to have a solid grounding in structural engineering. You're not suggesting that people's arms wither up and fall off from some sort of degree-induced leprosy, are you?

I get the premise...the idea is that people with a college degree won't settle for digging ditches all day, nor would their likely salary enable them to pay off student loans, put a roof over a family's head, etc. These conclusions, however, are not arguments against universal access to higher education; they are arguments in favor of reexamining how work arrangements -- particularly "jobs" as we currently know them -- are structured.

In a dramatically different context -- one in which artificial scarcity is rare or even all but unheard of -- jobs as we currently know them might not exist, or at the very least would be structured in a radically different manner. There's no reason we *have to* have people do just one or a few things for most of their waking hours on terms hostile to their own interests and under basic conditions defined by someone else. That's just what we're used to. Just as something other than serfdom and lordship was unthinkable to most during the medieval age, or something other than slavery and chattel ownership was unthinkable to to many during chattel slavery...so too with today. Most people today have a hard time conceiving of work arrangements other than wage/salary work...but that says more about lack of opportunity and political imagination than possibility.

teamosil said:

You're thinking in binary terms. The economy isn't just either "broken" or "working correctly"... We want to grow our GDP as fast as possible. The more people that are doing the most sophisticated work, the faster it grows. Somebody working at McDonalds adds 10 times as much to the economy as somebody picking fruit, and somebody who is working as an office assistant adds 10 times as much as somebody who is working at McDonalds. And a software programmer adds 10 times as much as the office assistant. And a chemical engineer adds 10 times as much as a software programmer. And an inventor adds 10 times as much as a chemical engineer. And a pure science researcher adds 10 times that much. Every person we can lift up one rung on that ladder makes a huge difference.

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A lot of logical problems with all this. But it goes back to the simple fact that the job market requires certain things, and only needs so much of any one thing. That you would waste tax payers money to 'educate' everyone does not change that fact. There are only so many positions where such people are needed. If that was not the case, there would be a huge market of jobs available for degree holders that the country does not have. But that is not the case.

teamosil said:

Median weekly income by education level:

No high school diploma: $451
High school: $638
2 year degree: $768
4 year degree: $1,053
Master's degree: $1,263
Phd: $1,551
Law or medical degree: $1,665

Everybody should at least get a 4 year degree in my opinion. That plays the role a high school degree used to. And at least the top 25% or so should go on to an advanced degree.

Education pays ...

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That advice is exactly why everyone began to run to colleges - to earn more money -and now that's why we have so many graduates who *are unemployed* - there's more to having a solid career than your education. And that's also why people now consider higher-education be a right that shoudl be paid for by the government and *not* their own personal choice or endeavor. I no longer believe those numbers are remotely true - the popularity of higher education has diminished those things.

There's MORE at stake here than your paycheck - what's the point of having a degree if you do't *have* what it really takes to find and *keep* a good career going?

People just don't want to accept that it's you as a person that makes your degree work for you - not the degree itself.

An idiot with a degree is an idiot with a degree - a lazy fool with a degree is a lazy fool with a degree. College is not for everyone and what you do while your there *does* matter a lot.

Arbo said:

You can move the goal posts to wherever you want, it doesn't change the fact that you said it is absurd to charge people for education. Meaning you obviously support free education. Meaning you want others to take care of the 'needs' of others (when in reality a college education is not a 'need'). Once again removing personal responsibility and the drive to 'work for what you want in life' from the equation. Like I said, a socialist fantasy world.

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This is illiterate bull****. Arguing in favor of spreading the cost of a general social benefit over a larger portion of the population does absolutely nothing to remove personal responsibility. If anything, making college education free or near-free to the student would pave the way towards much stronger meritocratic academic standards. When students are allowed to focus on studying instead of constantly running a week or a month ahead of bills working low-wage jobs, colleges would be freed up to base admission and advancement restrictions upon performance. As things stand now, it's rarely clear if a student's grades, attendance, and general engagement with subjects is reflective of their true potential, or is more an artifact of the artificially difficult demands upon their time and energy outside of class.

Arbo said:

Man, you spin like a top. You claim everyone having an education is good for us all. Yet have never proven such a thing. As has been pointed out to you, if everyone had a degree, the work force still needs those that don't need a degree. If say 30% of workers have a degree, and you give the other 70% a degree, how does that change the need of employers? It doesn't. The composition of what is needed in the workforce doesn't change. So what you now have is 70% of the people with a degree, paid for by the public, that will never use it, that will not get a 'better' job because of it, because there simply isn't the need in the workforce.

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I don't agree that everyone should be in college but I do agree with Temosil in pointing out that basing ability to attend college by income is ludicrous. It's the opposite of a meritocracy and instead creates and entrenched set of individuals that benefit from their parents wealth. As of now tuition has largely outpaced incomes of lower income but it's fastly approaching lower middle income individuals. I guess it won't be a big deal to most voters until the middle class as a whole find college unaffordable.

It's a dumb system though

An idiot with a degree is an idiot with a degree - a lazy fool with a degree is a lazy fool with a degree. College is not for everyone and what you do while your there *does* matter a lot.

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It's a major foot in the door. It establishes where you start at a company and what you do. I agree with what you're saying in general...a lazy/unambitious person isn't magically turned into Steve Jobs/Zuckerberg etc. It does have major ramifications though on potential lifelong wealth.

IT is elitist crap to think that we all need to be college educated when most jobs can be done with just a HS education and some OJT, and bringing in "guest workers" won't work at all. Many of the Middle East countries hire guest workers, and treat them like slaves. That won't work here, too many guns available.
I can agree that we all benefit when all are educated, but only if the education leads to a living wage job, no more, no less. You can't expect the poor to pay for the rich to get more education, or the disadvantaged to support the liesure class. I have many relatives who can barely handle high school, they have no business in college.

teamosil said:

You're thinking in binary terms. The economy isn't just either "broken" or "working correctly"... We want to grow our GDP as fast as possible. The more people that are doing the most sophisticated work, the faster it grows. Somebody working at McDonalds adds 10 times as much to the economy as somebody picking fruit, and somebody who is working as an office assistant adds 10 times as much as somebody who is working at McDonalds. And a software programmer adds 10 times as much as the office assistant. And a chemical engineer adds 10 times as much as a software programmer. And an inventor adds 10 times as much as a chemical engineer. And a pure science researcher adds 10 times that much. Every person we can lift up one rung on that ladder makes a huge difference.

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All the work has to be done. It's not just about posting numbers on a piece of paper. The more of that work that is done by Americans, the better off America will be.

Aunt Spiker said:

There's MORE at stake here than your paycheck - what's the point of having a degree if you do't *have* what it really takes to find and *keep* a good career going?

People just don't want to accept that it's you as a person that makes your degree work for you - not the degree itself.

An idiot with a degree is an idiot with a degree - a lazy fool with a degree is a lazy fool with a degree. College is not for everyone and what you do while your there *does* matter a lot.

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The reality is that in the modern information economy most people can't really do anything at all to advance the economy without at least a college degree. We're at a point where running a successful landscaping business or whatever is probably more of a drain on the economy than a boost. It pulls down our average. The opportunity costs need to be considered. Every person doing manual labor means one less person doing a job that might generate 10 times, or even 100 times, as much GDP. So, while definitely it is possible that somebody gets a degree and makes nothing of it, it is becoming increasingly unlikely that people who don't have a degree will make something of themselves.