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Thread: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

  1. #291
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I just fundamentally disagree with that idea. You are assuming that there are a fixed number of jobs that require educated workers. That doesn't seem to be the case at all. An educated workforce is a massive resource. Probably the biggest and most central economic resource there is. The bigger and the more educated it gets, the more the market will continue to find ways to profit off that resource. It's not like if you have two islands one with 10 inventors and one with 100 inventors, they'll both invent the same things and 90 of the inventors will be sitting idle on the second island. The second island will invent 10 times as many things. Actually, it appears that because of synchronicities between their work, the second island will invent more like 20 times as many things. Same with everything. If we have a bunch more computer programmers we will come up with more clever ways to use computers and the internet to create new fields. It propels itself forward. Educated people create their own niches to work in. That's why today we have several times as many jobs that require college degrees as we did 30 years ago, and we will have several times more in another 30 years. We aren't all that far from the point where say 80% of jobs will require at least that much education. Certainly we'll cross that line in the lifetimes of people who are in high school today.
    Not sure how old you are, but I am 66....been in the work force, now retired. Got 2 kids with degrees, and 7 grandkids that we will help go to college.
    ONE of those may not get to go, health reasons. One has a blank spot on his brain when it comes to math, hopefully he can work around that by choosing his major in an area where math isn't needed.
    I am all for educating everyone, but NOT having the govt pay for it past high school. High school is enough to make a person employable at a living wage.
    Beyond that, the parents, the student, relatives, etc. get to pay for it....
    We just don't have the resources for college educated truck drivers, store clerks, etc.
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Not sure how old you are, but I am 66....been in the work force, now retired. Got 2 kids with degrees, and 7 grandkids that we will help go to college.
    ONE of those may not get to go, health reasons. One has a blank spot on his brain when it comes to math, hopefully he can work around that by choosing his major in an area where math isn't needed.
    I am all for educating everyone, but NOT having the govt pay for it past high school. High school is enough to make a person employable at a living wage.
    Beyond that, the parents, the student, relatives, etc. get to pay for it....
    We just don't have the resources for college educated truck drivers, store clerks, etc.
    Well, where we disagree then is that I think the educated workforce IS the resource. We are creating resource when we educate people. So the idea that we lack the resources to educate people doesn't really make sense. Each person that goes to college increases our total pool of economic resources by several times more than they diminish it. So much that they even increase our tax revenues by more than the cost of their education.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  3. #293
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue_State View Post
    There are other ways to go to college than paying for it. The GI Bill and state schools...someone could get a MBA.

    And when does the free pass stop? Should we give out free PhDs? Keep people in school until 37 on free education? We have to put the breaks on it somewhere, and highschool is fine. We aren't even performing well on that stage and we want to extend education for another 4 years? Let those who are taking the lead, lead. Those who want to fall off to the wayside...fall away.

    To quote a great, "If there is a will, there is a way."
    You are making many common assumptions that should be questioned, though no one does. First, ignoring the fact that free education is still work without pay. Prison is free too. So why should somebody stay in school until he is 37 if that makes him unable to support himself? Second, that making it acceptable to everyone means accepting everyone. Only those with the most natural talent will be allowed to take advantage of this. There is not enough room for everybody. Third, that we don't need to offer anything to potential contributors to the economy; it is up to them or their parents to sacrifice for us. If there is no will to positively motivate the most talented to study outside of a reward 5 to 15 years down the line, then the people we need will have no will to take the burden totally upon themselves. Pay them for their grades or you will get what you pay for: no-talent brown-noses and bluebloods.
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
    We won't live free until the 1% live in fear.
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  4. #294
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Well, where we disagree then is that I think the educated workforce IS the resource. We are creating resource when we educate people. So the idea that we lack the resources to educate people doesn't really make sense. Each person that goes to college increases our total pool of economic resources by several times more than they diminish it. So much that they even increase our tax revenues by more than the cost of their education.
    Employer needs are a factor to consider.....employers don't NEED highly educated people in low tech jobs, and they won't pay a higher wage to get a college educated clerk when a high school graduate is available....
    Likewise, if we all have degrees, the value of the degree is diminished. If ALL applicants for a job have the same education, the criteria becomes who is the best looking, or some other unfair criteria...
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  5. #295
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Employer needs are a factor to consider.....employers don't NEED highly educated people in low tech jobs, and they won't pay a higher wage to get a college educated clerk when a high school graduate is available....
    Likewise, if we all have degrees, the value of the degree is diminished. If ALL applicants for a job have the same education, the criteria becomes who is the best looking, or some other unfair criteria...
    No. Again, employer needs are not fixed by some mysterious external source. Nobody needed a database administrator until somebody invented the database. Nobody needed an internet marketing office until somebody invented the internet. The more educated our workforce is, the more new projects and new ideas and new inventions and new strategies are created, and then the more educated workers we need to carry those things out. It spirals up.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  6. #296
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by PrometheusBound View Post
    You are making many common assumptions that should be questioned, though no one does. First, ignoring the fact that free education is still work without pay. Prison is free too. So why should somebody stay in school until he is 37 if that makes him unable to support himself? Second, that making it acceptable to everyone means accepting everyone. Only those with the most natural talent will be allowed to take advantage of this. There is not enough room for everybody. Third, that we don't need to offer anything to potential contributors to the economy; it is up to them or their parents to sacrifice for us. If there is no will to positively motivate the most talented to study outside of a reward 5 to 15 years down the line, then the people we need will have no will to take the burden totally upon themselves. Pay them for their grades or you will get what you pay for: no-talent brown-noses and bluebloods.
    I am perfectly willing to pay for grades, I do so with my grandchildren, but only thru high school. I won't do this for others....
    and NO, I will not adopt you.
    There are some no talent brown nosed blue bloods out there, but not enough to worry about.
    Biggest problem is the no ambition young who have no desire to develop their talents unless they get a paycheck up front for it. Ever lend BIG money to a friend or relative? Try it, it will be a learning experience.
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No. Again, employer needs are not fixed by some mysterious external source. Nobody needed a database administrator until somebody invented the database. Nobody needed an internet marketing office until somebody invented the internet. The more educated our workforce is, the more new projects and new ideas and new inventions and new strategies are created, and then the more educated workers we need to carry those things out. It spirals up.
    The more tools you have, the more work you can do with less people. Law of diminishing returns says that you will come to a point where the sprialing effect collapses. There aren't enough consumers to support all these jobs you imagine.
    I know quite a few IT workers who are unemployed, have been since BEFORE this recession started.
    How do you know what emloyer needs are? even if you are in the position to hire, you are one person in one industry....
    not an expert in macroeconomics...
    Last edited by UtahBill; 05-18-12 at 02:10 PM.
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    we have been moving forward for generations without the masses being educated...it only takes one super brain to do it. Most of the scientists today are still riding on the coattails of those who moved us forward 80 years ago.

    I agree that a lot of education should be AVAILABLE, but put it on the internet. Let people register for a small fee, take courses, then show up at school and take monitored tests. ONE algebra teacher and a lot of test monitors would be all that is needed to teach Algebra 101 to millions of students....
    You also refute the demand for lower-echelon workers with higher skills. Treat the superior minds like we now treat superior athletes, from childhood on, and you will get the people who make things user friendly. With a computer diagnostic, even the auto repairmen don't have to be very skilled. The more geniuses we pay for their grades, the more they eventually invent things that anyone can quickly learn to use.
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
    We won't live free until the 1% live in fear.
    Hey, richboys! Imagine the boot of democracy stomping on your faces, forever.

  9. #299
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by PrometheusBound View Post
    You also refute the demand for lower-echelon workers with higher skills. Treat the superior minds like we now treat superior athletes, from childhood on, and you will get the people who make things user friendly. With a computer diagnostic, even the auto repairmen don't have to be very skilled. The more geniuses we pay for their grades, the more they eventually invent things that anyone can quickly learn to use.
    first identify the geniuses, and educate them....there aren't very many of them, actually. So we agree to a point.
    Computer diagnostics of autos has made mechanics lazy, if the computer doesn't tell them what is wrong, they replace parts til it works again. You still need to look at the potential failures that the computers don't monitor. A car that is completely monitored will cost a lot more money than you think....
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    The more tools you have, the more work you can do with less people. Law of diminishing returns says that you will come to a point where the sprialing effect collapses. There aren't enough consumers to support all these jobs you imagine.
    I know quite a few IT workers who are unemployed, have been since BEFORE this recession started.
    How do you know what emloyer needs are? even if you are in the position to hire, you are one person in one industry....
    not an expert in macroeconomics...
    No, that cuts the other way. The advance of technology is eliminating jobs that do NOT require an education. Those are the jobs that are most easily automated. Take landscaping. 50 years ago it required 2-3 times as many people doing that kind of work because they used hand clippers instead of weed whackers and shovels instead of back hoes and reel manual mowers instead of motorized law mowers. Manufacturing jobs are increasingly getting automated. Agriculture is increasingly getting automated. Hand car washes are fading away to mechanical ones. Even restaurants are slowly finding that they need fewer and fewer staff as cooking and dishwashing technologies get better and they can get pre-prepared components from the factory cheaper than they can make them themselves. As technology advances it chews away at the lower end of the job spectrum while creating new opportunities at the top of the spectrum. That's why we steadily need more and more education to keep up.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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