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Thread: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

  1. #281
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    look it up yourself....
    instead of just denying it...
    The USA does not NEED all the education it has, if a large percentage of our grads can't find work in their major...
    That's pathologically unimaginative.

    Here's a thought...if the way things are being done means lots of people (I'd say most) working at far below / far away from their potential -- with or without regards to formal education -- then how about DOING THINGS DIFFERENTLY?

    When I see/hear stances to the effect of We Don't Need So Many Educated People/We Still Need Ditch Diggers, my response is this:

    How many software engineers did we need before the first software engineer?
    How many genetic counselors, biophysicists, electric guitarists, and (insert-your-choice-here) did we need before the first of each of those?

    As they might have phrased it in Mr. Mom... if you truly can't conceive of any productive role for having a greater number of educated people (formal or otherwise) in the economy... then the economy is 'doing it wrong.'

    I absolutely agree that WITHIN WHAT WE'RE USED TO LIVING UNDER, there's not much space for a massive expansion of folks with high-level formal educations...to which my response is...OK THEN, let's live and work differently.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

  2. #282
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    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

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  3. #283
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Read the whole post before you reply and see if you can come up with a counter argument. If not, don't reply.
    good advice.....for you as well...
    in my own family, it was clear that 2 of us were smarter and more willing to apply some effort to school, and one was probably average, and the other 2 were slow, poor readers, put little effort into school.
    My parents tried to help the last 2, but eventually gave up. They both quit school at 17. BTW, our parents were the "18 and out" type. No help, not even allowed to live at home unless paying room and board, even if we could afford college, we couldn't afford the high room and board my mother wanted.
    My grandparents recognized that I, and one sister, were more likely to succeed, and they didn't even see us but about a dozen times a year. They offered to take us in to their home, but my parents said no.
    None of what you are saying is new, news, or rocket science. Most teachers can make a fairly accurate assessment of their students abilities and attitude, and can bring this to the attention of the parents, who may or may not make an effort to help the slow.
    Long story short, we don't have unlimited resources to throw at limited children. Life isn't fair, we don't need a bunch of liberal arts majors sitting around discussing the finer points of some philosohy, etc.
    If your kids are special, it is up to you to give them more opportunities. The schools don't have the money to go the shotgun approach, sometimes not even the targeted approach. The schools are there to make our kids trainable, and employable. Anything extra, you the parents should do.
    Last edited by UtahBill; 05-18-12 at 10:32 AM.
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  4. #284
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No, no. Those are two different things. We need all the education we can get. That is what propels us forward. It's like the gas in our engine. That we're still coming out of a recession at the moment doesn't change that one bit. People getting an education now are still going to be working 30 or 40 years from now. Making decisions about our nation's educational needs for the next four decades based on this week's employment situation would be insane.
    we have been moving forward for generations without the masses being educated...it only takes one super brain to do it. Most of the scientists today are still riding on the coattails of those who moved us forward 80 years ago.

    I agree that a lot of education should be AVAILABLE, but put it on the internet. Let people register for a small fee, take courses, then show up at school and take monitored tests. ONE algebra teacher and a lot of test monitors would be all that is needed to teach Algebra 101 to millions of students....
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    we have been moving forward for generations without the masses being educated...
    No, we have been moving forward BECAUSE the masses have been getting educated:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...attainment.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    it only takes one super brain to do it. Most of the scientists today are still riding on the coattails of those who moved us forward 80 years ago.
    The way you think of this stuff is very strange. Like the world is one scientist and then a bunch of manual laborers lol. That isn't reality at all. In reality we have tens of millions of jobs that require at least a college degree and millions of jobs that require a graduate degree of some kind. Those jobs pay way more. The more of those kinds of jobs we can have, the better off we all are.

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    I agree that a lot of education should be AVAILABLE, but put it on the internet. Let people register for a small fee, take courses, then show up at school and take monitored tests. ONE algebra teacher and a lot of test monitors would be all that is needed to teach Algebra 101 to millions of students....
    From the research I've seen, online learning isn't very effective compared to in person classes. I agree we should make it available for free, but that doesn't replace actual schools at all. At least not yet. Maybe some day it will catch up though.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    in my own family, it was clear that 2 of us were smarter and more willing to apply some effort to school, and one was probably average, and the other 2 were slow, poor readers, put little effort into school.
    What you're missing is that probably all five of you would have benefited from a college degree. At least, unless the 2 that were slow were say borderline mentally disabled. Almost everybody gets a better job if they go to college. The average guy makes 65% more if they go to college. That's the median difference. Maybe the below average guy makes 40% more, the way below average guy makes 20%, and only the ludicrously far below average guy can't make anything at all out of a college degree.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    What you're missing is that probably all five of you would have benefited from a college degree. At least, unless the 2 that were slow were say borderline mentally disabled. Almost everybody gets a better job if they go to college. The average guy makes 65% more if they go to college. That's the median difference. Maybe the below average guy makes 40% more, the way below average guy makes 20%, and only the ludicrously far below average guy can't make anything at all out of a college degree.

    These are made up statistics.

    Not everyone needs or will benefit going to college. There are limited resources, not everyone is going to get access.
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue_State View Post
    These are made up statistics.
    No, that the median difference in income between a high school diploma and a college degree is 65% is an objective fact- Education pays ...

    The 20% and 40% estimates are just guesses as I made clear. But obviously it doesn't just go from the average guy making 65% more to the guy 1 person below the national average making 0% more, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue_State View Post
    Not everyone needs or will benefit going to college.
    Maybe it is true that not everyone would benefit, but obviously the substantial majority do, right? Again, half of people gain 65% of income more more by getting a college degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue_State View Post
    There are limited resources, not everyone is going to get access.
    That just isn't so. There are not fixed amounts of resources. The median person makes $21,580 more per year by going to college. They work for something like 40 years. So that's an additional $863,200 of GDP per person that goes to college. The cost of college is somewhere around $180,000. The median American pays about 27% of their income in taxes between state and federal. So that means that by going to college a person adds $233,064 to our tax revenues over their lifetime. More than enough to cover the cost of their college even if the government paid for it flat out and then to boost up our tax revenues on top. And that's just the median difference. The average would obviously be much higher. Each person that goes to college isn't a drain on our society, they're propelling it forward. The more that go to college, the faster we move forward and the better off we all are.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No, that the median difference in income between a high school diploma and a college degree is 65% is an objective fact- Education pays ....
    It is also objective fact that that income disparity will shrink as more and more people obtain higher degrees. There will be less need to reward those with degrees if everyone has a degree. Further, the more people business have to choose from, the less they have to offer in return.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    It is also objective fact that that income disparity will shrink as more and more people obtain higher degrees. There will be less need to reward those with degrees if everyone has a degree. Further, the more people business have to choose from, the less they have to offer in return.
    I just fundamentally disagree with that idea. You are assuming that there are a fixed number of jobs that require educated workers. That doesn't seem to be the case at all. An educated workforce is a massive resource. Probably the biggest and most central economic resource there is. The bigger and the more educated it gets, the more the market will continue to find ways to profit off that resource. It's not like if you have two islands one with 10 inventors and one with 100 inventors, they'll both invent the same things and 90 of the inventors will be sitting idle on the second island. The second island will invent 10 times as many things. Actually, it appears that because of synchronicities between their work, the second island will invent more like 20 times as many things. Same with everything. If we have a bunch more computer programmers we will come up with more clever ways to use computers and the internet to create new fields. It propels itself forward. Educated people create their own niches to work in. That's why today we have several times as many jobs that require college degrees as we did 30 years ago, and we will have several times more in another 30 years. We aren't all that far from the point where say 80% of jobs will require at least that much education. Certainly we'll cross that line in the lifetimes of people who are in high school today.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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