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Thread: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    Several years ago, my daughter, then maybe 9 or so, made a comment that things like apples should be free. My son that is 2 years older, actually said to her "that is stupid, someone picks the apples, do you think they would pick apples to give them away for free? Would you go out there and do that?"

    So an at the time 11 year old got what it seem so many others don't. Free education? Who's paying for the buildings, who's paying for the supplies, the power and water for the facility, who is paying for those that teach? Yes, a socialist fantasy land.
    In "sink or swim," most people drown. The survivors deliver seafood to the rich parasites partying on the beach.
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
    We won't live free until the 1% live in fear.
    Hey, richboys! Imagine the boot of democracy stomping on your faces, forever.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    just sticking with the person cited in the OP...if you knowingly go to a school with 50k a year tuition...then yes...its your fault. If you didnt 'know' what it was going to cost then you maybe shouldnt ought to have signed on for the program. How on earth do you make the decision, attend the school, and then complain that it costs too much?

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Why should any undergrad program cost 50 grand a year?

    High schools spend around 10 grand or so, more in affluent areas and in pockets of poverty that attract federal dollars perhaps, but still somewhere around that figure. High school kids are still not considered to be adults, and so have to be watched all of the time they're at school. Universities, on the other hand, have them in class for two or three hours a day at most, and leave them on their own the rest of the time. Moreover, the college can put 200 students into a big lecture hall with one professor. Try that with high school kids and see what happens. Higher education is much less labor intensive, then, and yet the cost is a lot more. Sure, the professors have to have a high degree of education, but most of them still aren't payed any great salary. I've interviewed college professors wanting to go back to K -12, and why? Because the pay is better.

    So, why should college be so expensive in the first place?
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    It's a bit depressing to read science and tech journals these days. You see all these interesting discoveries and innovations coming out of US universities, and swell up with pride a little, and then you look at who's doing the research and so often its a student from India or China or wherever. And then, due to our idiotic immigration polcies, we send those folks who've taken so much from our university system back where they came from and lose the benefit of their learning.
    As I understand it, we do make room for people you describe and even offer them a special path to permanent status - So long as there is demand for science/tech/discoveries/innovations that isn't being filled by current US citizens, a foreign student with those skills can take the job and in so doing, achieve permanent resident status.

    I'm sure there's a ton of red tape, and it puts extra pressure on the employer who has to sponsor the person and demonstrate that they can't find existing citizens to fill the position - but that's supposed to ensure that people who stay have a job and fill a necessary role.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Why should any undergrad program cost 50 grand a year?

    High schools spend around 10 grand or so, more in affluent areas and in pockets of poverty that attract federal dollars perhaps, but still somewhere around that figure. High school kids are still not considered to be adults, and so have to be watched all of the time they're at school. Universities, on the other hand, have them in class for two or three hours a day at most, and leave them on their own the rest of the time. Moreover, the college can put 200 students into a big lecture hall with one professor. Try that with high school kids and see what happens. Higher education is much less labor intensive, then, and yet the cost is a lot more. Sure, the professors have to have a high degree of education, but most of them still aren't payed any great salary. I've interviewed college professors wanting to go back to K -12, and why? Because the pay is better.

    So, why should college be so expensive in the first place?
    Well, $50k is the total cost of tuition + housing + living expenses + food that they estimate for that school. So you're not comparing apples to apples. The tuition there is $35k. That is a lot more than high school though.

    College professors at community colleges often make comparable amounts to high school teachers, but not usually at four year colleges. Ohio Northern, where that person went, is a pretty solid school. They're ranked #2 in the midwest of the regional colleges. So, I'd be willing to bet most of the professors there make 2-3 times as much as a high school teacher. And, teaching a college course isn't like teaching a high school course. High school teachers might teach 5 classes a day and only have one hour a day to prepare, which means very limited chances to meet with students, adapt and update their curriculum, tailor things for individual students, etc. A college professor on the other hand typically is going to be teaching only 1 or 2 courses at a time so that they have plenty of time to prepare, have office hours, do the research that keeps them up to date in their field, etc.

    But, you also have to have much more sophisticated facilities at the college level. You can get through a high school science class with like some beakers and buntson burners, but college level science might require all manner of sophisticated and expensive equipment. A university library has at least dozens of times as many books.

    And, universities perform more functions for society than just educating students. They conduct huge amounts of scientific research, provide a foundation where people can write the articles and whatnot that progress is built on, advise policy makers, etc.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No, no. Somebody who isn't living up to their potential is a drain. If you take a person who could have been generating $250,000/year in GDP as a software engineer had they been educated and instead you have them generating $25,000/year in GDP mowing lawns, then their failure to get an education costs $225,000/year.



    No of course not. Exactly the opposite- many people who are closer to the bottom of the ladder education wise needs to buck up and get back in school to do their part and everybody needs to be making sure that their kids stay in school as long as they can hack it.
    Finally, someone distinguished between quantity and quality. I was a National Merit scholar but I couldn't stand working without pay, which is all college means. I was never allowed to contribute my talent to society unless I sacrificed by living like a 15-year-old until I finished college and graduate schools. So I never generated the $200,000 a year extra that you state I could have generated. Only people like me could have generated that, not the people who put up with working without pay. I only would have required half of that for salary and tuition and for only 4-12 years. Businessmen and society benefit from getting the most talented to go to college. By not paying them to go, these freeloaders are getting less than they would net if the few who belong in college were paid to go there.
    Last edited by PrometheusBound; 05-16-12 at 05:32 PM.
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
    We won't live free until the 1% live in fear.
    Hey, richboys! Imagine the boot of democracy stomping on your faces, forever.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    If it is free, far more people will go, a lot of them being people that probably are not suited to such things. Why worry, it's "free"
    This falsely presumes that removing personal finance as a barrier means ending all forms of screening or selectivity. It does not. It just means that those who are qualified to pursue a college education but otherwise could not afford to attend may be able to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    Yes, perhaps it is a good thing to not extend the utopian dreams too far in this discussion.
    You're welcome to take that up with someone if they bring up utopian dreams. Note: a practice or change being beyond *your* political imagination doesn't make something utopian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    You know, the rest of your wall of text
    Unless you have some kind of disability, referring to the post in question as a wall of text suggest you have an incredibly low tolerance for reading.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    just isn't worth responding to. I just listened to Ed Schultz for the past hour to see what that idiot was up to, and now that I find a lot of the same thought processes, I am just to numb to care to respond.
    So, to be clear...because you just listened to Ed Schulz, you can't be bothered to put together a reasonable and responsible response to basic points? Ok...got it.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I support the idea of public education and I think the economy would benefit from it, but I think it's a bit extreme to suggest that EVERYONE should have have a college degree.

    It's a bit depressing to read science and tech journals these days. You see all these interesting discoveries and innovations coming out of US universities, and swell up with pride a little, and then you look at who's doing the research and so often its a student from India or China or wherever. And then, due to our idiotic immigration polcies, we send those folks who've taken so much from our university system back where they came from and lose the benefit of their learning.
    I also noticed that most of the names are male, which is not because of undeserved prejudice that the femininnies cry about, but proof that men are more numerous at the high end of the Bell Curve. And the fact that there are more women in college only proves the real-life fact that a female student doesn't need a job and a car to get a date. But the males do; they get sick of being losers and drop out.
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
    We won't live free until the 1% live in fear.
    Hey, richboys! Imagine the boot of democracy stomping on your faces, forever.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    And, universities perform more functions for society than just educating students. They conduct huge amounts of scientific research, provide a foundation where people can write the articles and whatnot that progress is built on, advise policy makers, etc.
    A new professor may get a small amount of money from the University to get started on research, but for the most part it's up to researchers and professors to secure outside funding for the "huge amounts of scientific research" that are conducted. The equipment in their labs is mostly purchased with grant money.

    The huge increase in college tuition has not benefited students - it's largely gone to administrators, athletics, salaries, etc. Today's student gets much less for their money than they once did.

    A college professor on the other hand typically is going to be teaching only 1 or 2 courses at a time so that they have plenty of time to prepare, have office hours, do the research that keeps them up to date in their field, etc.
    I'm sure it varies a lot by university, but my experience has been that professors are required to teach 3-4 classes at a time and actually pay the university to "buy out" of having to teach. They spend little or no time preparing unless it's the first time they've taught the class - they know the stuff backwards and forwards, and graduate students do most of the grading, and other administrative stuff. Office hours are limited.

    It's all about the research. That's what they care about and that's what the University cares about. You can be a phenomenal instructor, but if you don't publish you're gone. If you're a fairly poor instructor they really don't care so long as you can bring money into the University and conduct research that helps to distinguish its reputation.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    A new professor may get a small amount of money from the University to get started on research, but for the most part it's up to researchers and professors to secure outside funding for the "huge amounts of scientific research" that are conducted. The equipment in their labs is mostly purchased with grant money.

    The huge increase in college tuition has not benefited students - it's largely gone to administrators, athletics, salaries, etc. Today's student gets much less for their money than they once did.

    I'm sure it varies a lot by university, but my experience has been that professors are required to teach 3-4 classes at a time and actually pay the university to "buy out" of having to teach. They spend little or no time preparing unless it's the first time they've taught the class - they know the stuff backwards and forwards, and graduate students do most of the grading, and other administrative stuff. Office hours are limited.

    It's all about the research. That's what they care about and that's what the University cares about. You can be a phenomenal instructor, but if you don't publish you're gone. If you're a fairly poor instructor they really don't care so long as you can bring money into the University and conduct research that helps to distinguish its reputation.
    Aren't you contradicting yourself? On one hand you're saying it is "all about the research", but on the other hand you seem to be saying that they don't spend much any paid time researching... It has definitely been my experience that professors spend at least as much time writing and researching as they do teaching. That may not be true at lower tier schools, but lower tier schools also generally don't charge as much.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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