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Thread: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

  1. #191
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    Having an education does not make one 'more productive'.
    What? Of course it does... Not sure what you mean there... Obviously an education makes an employee more productive... Why do you think employers pay so much more for more educated people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    Nor does it mean more 'high end' jobs will be created. What is it you do not understand about jobs not being created out of thin air? They are created out of the need of the market... there is a need, the market creates jobs to fill that need. No company in existence is is going to see everyone now has a degree and think "oh gee, more smart and hard working people, let's create some new positions just because there are people to fill them!"
    I already addressed this. First off, it means we are more competitive relative to other countries, so we get more of the high end jobs here. Second, it means increased demand. More educated people make more money, they buy more products, that creates more high end jobs, those employees buy more products, etc... On top of that, more educated people means more inventions, more new industries, more new ways to make a living, etc. The US's economy has always been primarily driven by being out front of the newest boom- computers, pharmaceuticals, even steel and oil and cars back in the day. But as time goes on and they aren't as new, other countries catch up and we start to lose those jobs. We either replace them with, newer, more sophisticated, higher tech, jobs from the next big boom and stay ahead, or we fade back into the pack.

    I mean, think about it. If your notion that the available pool of jobs was somehow fixed in time were true why aren't we all still farmers?
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  2. #192
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Oh....students are to blame for the costs of college.

    Thanks guys, problem solved.
    Nice strawman.

    People weren't blaming the student for the "Cost of College". They were blaming the student for not having the forethought to actually identify what that cost would be, and for choosing a college without taking that into account, and then taking out numerous loans without seemingly taking notice of how much they were taking, and then only after they've finished school and looking at the total going "OMG No one told me it was this much".

    If a person was driving in an unsafe car and got injured, I wouldn't blame the person for the car being unsafe. I would however blame them, if the information was readily and easily available prior to them purchasing and they even knew it was an unsafe car, for not researching the problems with the cars, looking into alternatives, and actually purchasing the car if they started complaining after the accident that "no one told them" that the specific problem with the car could result in them being injured.

    The student's not responsable for the rising cost of college.

    The student is responsable however for choosing the college she chose, knowing it would be expensive and having the cost readily available to her, and getting the debt that she chose to take on.

  3. #193
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    My generation being sacked with what is essentially mortgage level debt in our mid-20's without the benefit of actually owning property is worrisome.
    I think a huge part of this, honestly, is the transition in the public mind of College into simply "High School+". It's not somewhere to go for higher learning or to prepare for your future job or to exchange ideas and better knowledge of the world....it's that thing you do after high school so that you can get some job (whatever it may be) and is a great place to continue to socialize and party away from your parents but without fully having to be on your own. It's became just an accepted understanding that you're supposed to go to college, regardless if you necessarily need it or will benefit tangably from it, and society moving to a point where a basic college degree is viewed similar to how a high school degree used to be as almost mandatory for anything above a menial job. Eveyrone wanted their children to have it "better then they did" and that's great and all, but it's essentially transformed college from a form of volunatary high education and transition to adulthood into just the next step in adolescense.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    Ah, you were confused by my quoting the article? I wasn't talking about me, it was the idiot the article mentioned.
    I know, but since you quoted the key quote of her's that I cared about I just stripped down to her comment...that's why I left the " "'s around it to make it clear (failed at that) I was talking about her statement, not your view

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    And at the comments in here that have nonsense to say about private and "Ivy League" type colleges. It's just as bad as people having a problem with higher education in general. This board is the only place in my life where I've seen people refer to higher education and high quality higher education as "crap" and the like. Such nonsense.
    I can agree here. They aren't crap and they're good schools. The issue though is that simply going there to go there, the benefits of it MAY not outstrip the cost of going. If you can afford to go, through a variety of means, and the education you gain there is one you reasonably expect to pay off in terms of a job that pays in such a way to justify that expenditure...then it's a great idea.

    However, if you have no clue what you want to do after college or know you're going into a low wage profession, don't have much money, and aren't doing the work to try and get a good bit of scholarships or work the off season and part time during school to off-set your loans, then the cost of it probably outweighs the benefit.

    There's nothing crappy about the Ivy league as far as education goes, and I applaud those that can go there and are in a place where going there makes sense...but I just don't have a ton of sympathy for those who are smart enough to get into a place like that but not smart enough to make the reasonable determination of its worth

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    I think it's a shared fault.

    Fault of parents who cosign loans and encourage their children to overlook common sense (cost being one such thing)
    Fault of students who want to attend high cost schools and are making might adult decisions without handling it maturely
    Fault of schools for treating potential students as customers and not students.
    Agree completely. The parents in this mistify me. I understand you don't want to, and shouldn't, just shatter your kids dreams but you have to talk to them in an adult manner and let them know the realities of the situation at the very least first.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    What a mangled up web you have woven. First, you are running with the idea that the public paying for everyone to get a degree
    Again, with the illiteracy. I never said everyone should get a degree. Rather, that college education should be free to the student. Note: free to the student doesn't mean free...it means the expenses are not billed to the student. Students would still pay indirectly (through taxes and other contributions) before and after their time as students in their capacities in other roles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    is a benefit to society. It has been shown again and again, society does not support a 'higher paying job' for every single person if they had a degree.
    If it was up to me, almost no one would have jobs...and that would be a good thing...but that's another topic, and clearly beyond what you're prepared to conceive of right now. In any case, I never said that society would support a higher paying job for everyone, nor did I say or expect that everyone would go to college. Rather, those who do should be able to pursue their education according to their interests and abilities, instead of their personal finances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    So the cost to value does not work out as a positive, to those people or society.
    If you base your assessment upon narrow consumerist criteria AND presume continuation of the current arrangement of work roles AND you take no account of benefits personally and societally ignored by measures like GDP, then sure. If you don't make those completely unwarranted presumptions, then universal access (everyone being ABLE to go to college, which is not the same thing as everyone going to college) indeed might be a net loss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    Then you throw in that this would somehow change admission standards.... um, what does who is paying have to do with that?
    If you don't understand the impact that financial strain has on performance -- as students or in any role -- then I'm not sure you're qualified to have a reasonable conversation about this topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    Shouldn't they have performance based standards for admission anyway?
    I'd love to see performance based standards. Instead, what we have is compliance- and finance-based standards: those with high grades (high compliance, not necessarily high performance) and better finances (those who can afford the luxury of dedicating years primarily or exclusively to focused study) are undeservedly favored. Genuine meritocratic admission requires -- at minimum -- an approximate leveling of the playing field (leveling UP...such that practical tests of ability reflect ability instead of who could afford to practice all week vs. who pulled a 60-hour workweek to make rent). We don't have anything close to that right now. Currently, students, teachers, administrators, and admissions officials alike all get together and engage in a make-believe game where they pretend that non-parallel grading systems from non-parallel school systems with non-parallel resources and opportunities for wildly disparately prepared students are actually the same one standard measure, and only superficial countenance (if any) is allotted to considering financial hardship, political or social disadvantage, health challenges, and a host of other things which have a heavy impact on performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    And don't most, in fact, already have such things?
    No. Right now, students are admitted or not based upon grades (institutional compliance, not performance) and money (comparably rated students with more money simply have dramatically better opportunities).

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    Some people have to work while going to college? Oh my, somebody call the whhaaaambulance.
    As usual, you completely miss the point. Of course people deal with having to work. The point is that lumping together students who didn't wash a dish until they were 21 with others who have been working part or full-time since 15 is not meritocracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    Live is tough, you rarely get to concentrate on one thing at a time, deal with it.
    Ahh, I see...so you actually DON'T want a meritocracy after all...because you're perfectly OK with preserving artificial barriers to performance and pretending away the obstacles presented by several major demands on the time, energy, and opportunity of students.
    Last edited by cmakaioz; 05-16-12 at 02:12 PM.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

  8. #198
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    I got to wondering about that. It used to be that having a bachelor's degree was a big deal, now it seems like everyone has one. Seems the figure is just over 30%.

    Over 30 Percent of Americans Now Hold a Bachelor's Degree

    Which raises the questions: What is that other 70% doing? How many of the 30% are out of work? and, of course, how many lawyers do we need? (but you already asked that one).
    Education pays ...
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    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  9. #199
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Not necessarily. If everyone has a degree, there will be no one to dig the ditches. There's no way that can be good for the economy, nor for our society as a whole.
    I have to argue that as the US is moving from an industrial to a knowledge economy, thus if most people have degrees, it will be better for the economy as a whole.
    "And in the end, we were all just humans, drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness."

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I can agree here. They aren't crap and they're good schools. The issue though is that simply going there to go there, the benefits of it MAY not outstrip the cost of going. If you can afford to go, through a variety of means, and the education you gain there is one you reasonably expect to pay off in terms of a job that pays in such a way to justify that expenditure...then it's a great idea.

    However, if you have no clue what you want to do after college or know you're going into a low wage profession, don't have much money, and aren't doing the work to try and get a good bit of scholarships or work the off season and part time during school to off-set your loans, then the cost of it probably outweighs the benefit.

    There's nothing crappy about the Ivy league as far as education goes, and I applaud those that can go there and are in a place where going there makes sense...but I just don't have a ton of sympathy for those who are smart enough to get into a place like that but not smart enough to make the reasonable determination of its worth
    I think that an Ivy League education is probably a very good investment even if someone doesn't necessarily know what they plan to do afterwards. No matter what someone decides to do later, that degree will open doors. There's also the networking aspect which is not insignificant.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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