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Thread: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

  1. #161
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    That's what we need a guest worker program for- to fill in the jobs we leave behind.
    A guest worker program didn't make this country great. You're trying to fix something that isn't broken.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    A guest worker program didn't make this country great. You're trying to fix something that isn't broken.
    Yeah really - we have plenty of people in this country to do all of that; they just aren't always living in the areas that need them.
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Forty five thousand people will graduate from American law schools this year. Only half of them will ever find a job practicing law. The average debt each of these young people incurred is $150,000. That's a poor investment. If they do find a legal job they won't make as much money as young lawyers in the past. There are now way too many lawyers.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    A guest worker program didn't make this country great. You're trying to fix something that isn't broken.
    You're thinking in binary terms. The economy isn't just either "broken" or "working correctly"... We want to grow our GDP as fast as possible. The more people that are doing the most sophisticated work, the faster it grows. Somebody working at McDonalds adds 10 times as much to the economy as somebody picking fruit, and somebody who is working as an office assistant adds 10 times as much as somebody who is working at McDonalds. And a software programmer adds 10 times as much as the office assistant. And a chemical engineer adds 10 times as much as a software programmer. And an inventor adds 10 times as much as a chemical engineer. And a pure science researcher adds 10 times that much. Every person we can lift up one rung on that ladder makes a huge difference.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Median weekly income by education level:

    No high school diploma: $451
    High school: $638
    2 year degree: $768
    4 year degree: $1,053
    Master's degree: $1,263
    Phd: $1,551
    Law or medical degree: $1,665

    Everybody should at least get a 4 year degree in my opinion. That plays the role a high school degree used to. And at least the top 25% or so should go on to an advanced degree.

    Education pays ...
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Again- we all benefit from people getting an education, not just the person that gets the education. You're the one looking for something for nothing. You want to benefit from other people's education without chipping in.
    Man, you spin like a top. You claim everyone having an education is good for us all. Yet have never proven such a thing. As has been pointed out to you, if everyone had a degree, the work force still needs those that don't need a degree. If say 30% of workers have a degree, and you give the other 70% a degree, how does that change the need of employers? It doesn't. The composition of what is needed in the workforce doesn't change. So what you now have is 70% of the people with a degree, paid for by the public, that will never use it, that will not get a 'better' job because of it, because there simply isn't the need in the workforce.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Not necessarily. If everyone has a degree, there will be no one to dig the ditches. There's no way that can be good for the economy, nor for our society as a whole.
    On the contrary, I think it would be great for ditch-diggers to have a solid grounding in structural engineering. You're not suggesting that people's arms wither up and fall off from some sort of degree-induced leprosy, are you?

    I get the premise...the idea is that people with a college degree won't settle for digging ditches all day, nor would their likely salary enable them to pay off student loans, put a roof over a family's head, etc. These conclusions, however, are not arguments against universal access to higher education; they are arguments in favor of reexamining how work arrangements -- particularly "jobs" as we currently know them -- are structured.

    In a dramatically different context -- one in which artificial scarcity is rare or even all but unheard of -- jobs as we currently know them might not exist, or at the very least would be structured in a radically different manner. There's no reason we *have to* have people do just one or a few things for most of their waking hours on terms hostile to their own interests and under basic conditions defined by someone else. That's just what we're used to. Just as something other than serfdom and lordship was unthinkable to most during the medieval age, or something other than slavery and chattel ownership was unthinkable to to many during chattel slavery...so too with today. Most people today have a hard time conceiving of work arrangements other than wage/salary work...but that says more about lack of opportunity and political imagination than possibility.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    You're thinking in binary terms. The economy isn't just either "broken" or "working correctly"... We want to grow our GDP as fast as possible. The more people that are doing the most sophisticated work, the faster it grows. Somebody working at McDonalds adds 10 times as much to the economy as somebody picking fruit, and somebody who is working as an office assistant adds 10 times as much as somebody who is working at McDonalds. And a software programmer adds 10 times as much as the office assistant. And a chemical engineer adds 10 times as much as a software programmer. And an inventor adds 10 times as much as a chemical engineer. And a pure science researcher adds 10 times that much. Every person we can lift up one rung on that ladder makes a huge difference.
    A lot of logical problems with all this. But it goes back to the simple fact that the job market requires certain things, and only needs so much of any one thing. That you would waste tax payers money to 'educate' everyone does not change that fact. There are only so many positions where such people are needed. If that was not the case, there would be a huge market of jobs available for degree holders that the country does not have. But that is not the case.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Median weekly income by education level:

    No high school diploma: $451
    High school: $638
    2 year degree: $768
    4 year degree: $1,053
    Master's degree: $1,263
    Phd: $1,551
    Law or medical degree: $1,665

    Everybody should at least get a 4 year degree in my opinion. That plays the role a high school degree used to. And at least the top 25% or so should go on to an advanced degree.

    Education pays ...
    That advice is exactly why everyone began to run to colleges - to earn more money -and now that's why we have so many graduates who *are unemployed* - there's more to having a solid career than your education. And that's also why people now consider higher-education be a right that shoudl be paid for by the government and *not* their own personal choice or endeavor. I no longer believe those numbers are remotely true - the popularity of higher education has diminished those things.

    There's MORE at stake here than your paycheck - what's the point of having a degree if you do't *have* what it really takes to find and *keep* a good career going?

    People just don't want to accept that it's you as a person that makes your degree work for you - not the degree itself.

    An idiot with a degree is an idiot with a degree - a lazy fool with a degree is a lazy fool with a degree. College is not for everyone and what you do while your there *does* matter a lot.
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 05-16-12 at 12:45 PM.
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    You can move the goal posts to wherever you want, it doesn't change the fact that you said it is absurd to charge people for education. Meaning you obviously support free education. Meaning you want others to take care of the 'needs' of others (when in reality a college education is not a 'need'). Once again removing personal responsibility and the drive to 'work for what you want in life' from the equation. Like I said, a socialist fantasy world.
    This is illiterate bull****. Arguing in favor of spreading the cost of a general social benefit over a larger portion of the population does absolutely nothing to remove personal responsibility. If anything, making college education free or near-free to the student would pave the way towards much stronger meritocratic academic standards. When students are allowed to focus on studying instead of constantly running a week or a month ahead of bills working low-wage jobs, colleges would be freed up to base admission and advancement restrictions upon performance. As things stand now, it's rarely clear if a student's grades, attendance, and general engagement with subjects is reflective of their true potential, or is more an artifact of the artificially difficult demands upon their time and energy outside of class.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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