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Thread: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

  1. #121
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    They legally cannot do that, if they require additional training, they have to pay you to do it. I'd be saying "fine, fire me and I'll see you in court". Class action lawsuits are a wonderful thing.
    Not if it's part of the job. For instance, if you work in IT, but refuse to devote any time into keeping up with the ever evolving technology in the field, you're not gonna be very useful for long. I use IT as my example, because these are the sorts of fields where this is prevalent. It's a constantly changing, highly dynamic job, and the information you are required to know to be the most effective is as dynamic, and constantly changing. At the end of the day, I doubt they can fire you for NOT studying at home what you need to know to do the job...but they most certainly CAN fire you for incompetence, which would be the result of failing to do the former. Apple chose not to fire me, I quit a couple weeks later, so it was a non issue. But I'm quite sure that had I refuse to learn, say, Aperture, their new (at the time) crappy photo editing software, or refused to learn snow leapord, on my own time at home, they could not fire me...but when customers started to complain that I was not giving them good advice, or sound trouble shooting...I'd get canned quick.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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    Professor cmakaioz's Avatar
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    They legally cannot do that, if they require additional training, they have to pay you to do it. I'd be saying "fine, fire me and I'll see you in court". Class action lawsuits are a wonderful thing.
    Of course it's illegal...but with more money in the bank than many small countries, a world-class legal team advising Apple on how to stay technically within the letter of the law, it's not like any exec's are worried.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    Of course it's illegal...but with more money in the bank than many small countries, a world-class legal team advising Apple on how to stay technically within the letter of the law, it's not like any exec's are worried.
    If it's within the letter of the law, then it isn't illegal. I suppose it depends on how they work the system, they can require you to keep up existing external certifications and the like on your own time, but any internal Apple training, they must, by law, pay you for.
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    .........................
    Last edited by radcen; 05-15-12 at 06:28 PM.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    If it's within the letter of the law, then it isn't illegal. I suppose it depends on how they work the system, they can require you to keep up existing external certifications and the like on your own time, but any internal Apple training, they must, by law, pay you for.
    Many things are technically illegal yet still common practice. Proving the law was violated is sometimes hard to do.

    In this case, they probably don't outright require it, and as such technically remain within the law, but it is still "required" if you want to keep up and keep your job.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    I think agreeing to work a few years to repay the cost of the education is a reasonable agreement. For example, service academies require a 6 year commitment to repay a 4 year degree. Of course, during that 6 years, you are being paid, well, and have no student loans. At the end of it, you come out a 27 year old O3/4 with good experience, a BS, and a work ethic. Win-win for everyone.
    It's a great deal, so long as you don't get sent into combat. You get a degree sans student loans, and six years of experience.
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Some very young people here have some strange ideas.
    Education is what you get that makes you trainable. Training is usually done on the job. Employers do pay, I spent 8 years in night classes going for a BS degree, and my employer reimbused me for all of it. Truth be known, not much of those night classes actually improved my skills. After 12 years in the Navy, I already had plenty of training and experience, more than enough for the jobs I worked.
    Experience is not linear. Some people, after 10 years on the job, have 10 years experience, others have 1 year 10 times.
    I worked with a lot of engineers, and can say that a few of them had too much college education and too little expereince/training. They did not deserve their pay. Very few of them come out of college ready to be productive employees. Not all jobs are alike, even those with the same title...
    Employer take some risk hiring people. They can't really know if you are worth what they pay you until they try you. Sometimes, they end up having to fire you. If they take you in, train you, finally get to the point where you are an asset to them, what is stopping you from leaving and going to work for the competition? OTOH, some employers are rather stupid when they hire. Imagine being a degreed and somewhat experienced engineer and you read a posting on the wall for a union job, like meter reader, and see that they make more than the company is paying you? Seen it done, several quit.
    The system is huge, and complicated. Do what is best for you within the system, because the system isn't likely to change any time soon, no matter how much you value your own opinions as to how it SHOULD be...
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    If it's within the letter of the law, then it isn't illegal. I suppose it depends on how they work the system, they can require you to keep up existing external certifications and the like on your own time, but any internal Apple training, they must, by law, pay you for.
    It's simple. Apple Retail didn't -- on paper -- require you to learn more than the bare minimum tools for consumer-level use of Apple software in order to work as a Creative (a position they no longer support). However, in actual practice, if you didn't bust your ass to learn such software inside and out, your training team at a given store has a hard time attracting and retaining One To One training memberships...and then your session counts fall below quota...and then you get stuck in a permanent case of understaffing (so everyone who sticks around is overworked and stressed out). So legally, you could just get into that position and freeze your skill levels and not be fired, but your team would never get the payroll hours it needs in order to expand coverage, and the steady increase in job obligations (Apple Retail doesn't honor its own job descriptions; it regularly adds things in without additional pay or renegotiation) means everyone ends up overworked and grumpy. Furthermore, anyone seeking a promotion will put up with the extra study requirements, and so the company ends up with unpaid training time taken on "voluntarily" because people don't want to be passed over.

    Just another case of using surplus labor pressure to get away with squeezing more out of employees.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

  9. #129
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    It's simple. Apple Retail didn't -- on paper -- require you to learn more than the bare minimum tools for consumer-level use of Apple software in order to work as a Creative (a position they no longer support). However, in actual practice, if you didn't bust your ass to learn such software inside and out, your training team at a given store has a hard time attracting and retaining One To One training memberships...and then your session counts fall below quota...and then you get stuck in a permanent case of understaffing (so everyone who sticks around is overworked and stressed out). So legally, you could just get into that position and freeze your skill levels and not be fired, but your team would never get the payroll hours it needs in order to expand coverage, and the steady increase in job obligations (Apple Retail doesn't honor its own job descriptions; it regularly adds things in without additional pay or renegotiation) means everyone ends up overworked and grumpy. Furthermore, anyone seeking a promotion will put up with the extra study requirements, and so the company ends up with unpaid training time taken on "voluntarily" because people don't want to be passed over.

    Just another case of using surplus labor pressure to get away with squeezing more out of employees.
    And I would venture to say that just about EVERY job I have ever had is similar to this. Apple was the 2nd to worst, in my opinion...but as a general rule, if you wanna move up in a company, most ANY company, then you gotta more or less BE the next step up, long before you are ever paid to be in that position.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  10. #130
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    But the question I think Cmakoize is posing is, should this be an OPTION for the industry, or should there be some form of REQUIREMENT of them to help fund college educations, in exchange for services?
    Certainly, but no more so than any other benefit. If you enter an agreement for them to pay for 4 years of school in exchange for a 6 year contract, where's the question? A contract is a contract.
    Last edited by mac; 05-15-12 at 08:27 PM.
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