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Thread: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

  1. #111
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Is the only value of a college education monetary?
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Where do you think the student gets the money to pay the loan back genius?
    You clearly didn't get the basic point of the argument at hand. If students are expected to cater their curriculum to benefit their future employers, then the students shouldn't have to pay most of the college costs to begin with...their future employers should be footing most of the bill.

    See -- get this -- one's salary is supposed to be in exchange for the work you do in that job, not what you did before or might do after leaving that job. If you're suggesting that one's salary should remain the source of funds for repayment of student loans, then the student still ends up paying (and paying heavily) for what is effectively of primary benefit to the employer (state- and student- funded job training).

    Do you find this more comprehensible if phrased differently?:

    If employers set the educational agenda, then employers should pay for the education.

    If students shoulder most of the financial burden (on top of the doing the academic work itself), then students should retain primary say in their choice of curriculum.



    Also, once again: the recommendation that students tailor their degree curricula to maximize job marketability is untenable, as degrees take from 4-9 years to obtain, and job markets swing all over the place in a fraction of that time. A field might be the hot thing to get into when you're a freshman, but a wasteland of un- and underemployment by the time you graduate. Should students just keep going back to college getting more degrees until one of the ones they happen to have lines up with a decent job?!? That's absurd.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

  3. #113
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    You clearly didn't get the basic point of the argument at hand. If students are expected to cater their curriculum to benefit their future employers, then the students shouldn't have to pay most of the college costs to begin with...their future employers should be footing most of the bill.

    See -- get this -- one's salary is supposed to be in exchange for the work you do in that job, not what you did before or might do after leaving that job. If you're suggesting that one's salary should remain the source of funds for repayment of student loans, then the student still ends up paying (and paying heavily) for what is effectively of primary benefit to the employer (state- and student- funded job training).

    Do you find this more comprehensible if phrased differently?:

    If employers set the educational agenda, then employers should pay for the education.

    If students shoulder most of the financial burden (on top of the doing the academic work itself), then students should retain primary say in their choice of curriculum.



    Also, once again: the recommendation that students tailor their degree curricula to maximize job marketability is untenable, as degrees take from 4-9 years to obtain, and job markets swing all over the place in a fraction of that time. A field might be the hot thing to get into when you're a freshman, but a wasteland of un- and underemployment by the time you graduate. Should students just keep going back to college getting more degrees until one of the ones they happen to have lines up with a decent job?!? That's absurd.
    The problem that people run into when their employer is involved in cover the cost of their education for an agreement to be employed (etc) - is that they aren't as free as they should be to seek employment anywhere they want.

    Especially if that career is a coponent in the structure, design and organization of the business like an upper tier of function.
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  4. #114
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    You have a point. But I think putting anything tax-wise on businesses would just encourage them to skirt the issue. Not decide it's not necessary; but put it 'under the table' for a requirement.

    Higher-education in general: I think it goes beyond that (or should I say - goes *earlier* than that). I think the issue starts with public schooling which is no longer sufficient for a reasonable job/career beyond highschool. It's set up poorly - 12 years . . . for what? Only to *have* to go onto college? Why? Is 16 / 17 years of of full-time education really necessary just to find employment these days to pay the bills? 12 years in school should be plenty for a job that really requires little 'working-skills and knowledge'

    It use to be that a high-school diploma was adequate for a semi-reasonable career or employment path in life. If you wanted to do better - you chose to go to college. The cost of college is a different issue altogether.

    In this day and age we have numerous peopel working mundane crap jobs *with* college degrees because their degrees are really just meaningless in the job-market - unnecessary.
    Cars also used to run on mechanical devices called carburators, that most handy men knew how to fix/tune, etc...now they are fuel injected, and require RATHER technical, detailed expertise to work with, not to mention equipment beyond a flat head screw driver and a basic socket wrench set.

    Times have changed. Things aren't as simple anymore. As technology increases, so too does the demand for what employees are expected to deliver. This all points to more precise skill sets, and more specific educations. We are leaving behind the age of generalists, in favor of specialists. Highschool level education is exactly general education.

    As for people doing crap jobs, who have diplomas for specific jobs...that's a sign of a couple of things, foremost of them, technology reducing the need for as many workers. Fewer employees are doing more. Forcing others to take work where ever they can find it.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Just what careers are you thinking of here - what degrees?

    I think some are complete and total crap; like a Liberal Arts degree. Yes: if someone's willing to go and get a LIberal Arts degree there probably isn't much they couldn't have just learned by living a life and having a job and watching documentary tv shows. But other things - I wouldn't go to an accountant who didn't have the proper certification (etc) - you know. It depends on what it is and what the person plans to do with it.

    It seems lately that people plan on getting the degree under the old 80's belief that it didn't matter what degree it was - as long as you had it - you'd be paid more.

    So - some degrees are necessary and beneficial.
    Others - not so much.
    I am exactly a product of that old 80's belief, LOL. THANKS Mom, Dad, and guidance councelor!

    I have a BFA in Photography and Digital Imaging. There was nothing I learned at school that I could not have learned on my own...HOWEVER, everything I learned, I did so in 4 years. Probably would have taken me at least 10, in the real world, to get the same level of experiences. Issue is, no one cares about the experiences and skills I developed in college, only my professional career portfolio. That's strictly from a standpoint of trying to be a staff photographer, mind you. Most shooters make their money by starting their own business, not by signing on with Time, or National Geographic.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  6. #116
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    The problem that people run into when their employer is involved in cover the cost of their education for an agreement to be employed (etc) - is that they aren't as free as they should be to seek employment anywhere they want.
    Of course, but I'm referring to the normal case. The vast majority of college students (here, at least) don't receive any kind of employer-based education aid at all. When I worked for Apple, for example, people in my position were paid for about 4 hours/month out of what was effectively a 20-30 hour study requirement. Anything over the 4 hours was "voluntary", but if you didn't put in that kind of time and energy, you could pretty much guarantee that you won't see a promotion in your natural lifetime, nor could you maintain the curricular standards (this was for the "Creative" position when Apple still had one).

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Especially if that career is a coponent in the structure, design and organization of the business like an upper tier of function.
    Anything so deeply integrated into a business should be compensated accordingly. If such a role is of deep importance to the business at hand, then this importance should be reflected in compensation and provision of the relevant resources. This would likely include, but not be limited to, substantial additional pay (to cover lost opportunity costs). Some companies actually do this for high-level employees, but it remains the norm that most employers successfully rely upon the pressure from surplus labor and job competition to force employees (and applicants) to shoulder most of the cost of their own job training for mid- and upper-level positions. (The low positions are largely treated as interchangeable and expendable cogs).

    A less-insane approach to paying for higher education (as an interim measure within the larger challenge of dealing with the present madness) would be to set a kind of education tax on employers anchored to the formal educational requirements posted as prerequisites for the positions they seek to fill, with a scaled exemption offered for those employers who offer to pay for or otherwise alleviate student loans of employees.

    If we REALLY wanted to make education relevant and accessible, however, it would be set up so that financial cost was no longer a barrier to entry into college. Make it rigorous, meritocratic, and *financially* free to the student, and we'd end up with people who study things they're genuinely interested in (leading to more retention). Incentives to enter high-demand fields could still be arranged on other terms.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

  7. #117
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    Of course, but I'm referring to the normal case. The vast majority of college students (here, at least) don't receive any kind of employer-based education aid at all. When I worked for Apple, for example, people in my position were paid for about 4 hours/month out of what was effectively a 20-30 hour study requirement. Anything over the 4 hours was "voluntary", but if you didn't put in that kind of time and energy, you could pretty much guarantee that you won't see a promotion in your natural lifetime, nor could you maintain the curricular standards (this was for the "Creative" position when Apple still had one).



    Anything so deeply integrated into a business should be compensated accordingly. If such a role is of deep importance to the business at hand, then this importance should be reflected in compensation and provision of the relevant resources. This would likely include, but not be limited to, substantial additional pay (to cover lost opportunity costs). Some companies actually do this for high-level employees, but it remains the norm that most employers successfully rely upon the pressure from surplus labor and job competition to force employees (and applicants) to shoulder most of the cost of their own job training for mid- and upper-level positions. (The low positions are largely treated as interchangeable and expendable cogs).

    A less-insane approach to paying for higher education (as an interim measure within the larger challenge of dealing with the present madness) would be to set a kind of education tax on employers anchored to the formal educational requirements posted as prerequisites for the positions they seek to fill, with a scaled exemption offered for those employers who offer to pay for or otherwise alleviate student loans of employees.

    If we REALLY wanted to make education relevant and accessible, however, it would be set up so that financial cost was no longer a barrier to entry into college. Make it rigorous, meritocratic, and *financially* free to the student, and we'd end up with people who study things they're genuinely interested in (leading to more retention). Incentives to enter high-demand fields could still be arranged on other terms.
    Now I know why you hate employers so much, LOL. (Joking) You worked for apple. I used to be one of their "geniuses"...which was code for the poor bastard that had to answer any number of idiotic questions over the phone...and yes, Apple was a horrible employer, demanded a LOT of personal time be spent on work related crap, like constantly learning new OS's, and new programs (ESPECIALLY when they went pentium), etc...with absolutely NO compensation for doing so, beyond the "Well....you get to keep your job..."...to which I answered, fine, fire me.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  8. #118
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    The problem that people run into when their employer is involved in cover the cost of their education for an agreement to be employed (etc) - is that they aren't as free as they should be to seek employment anywhere they want.

    Especially if that career is a coponent in the structure, design and organization of the business like an upper tier of function.
    I think agreeing to work a few years to repay the cost of the education is a reasonable agreement. For example, service academies require a 6 year commitment to repay a 4 year degree. Of course, during that 6 years, you are being paid, well, and have no student loans. At the end of it, you come out a 27 year old O3/4 with good experience, a BS, and a work ethic. Win-win for everyone.
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    I think agreeing to work a few years to repay the cost of the education is a reasonable agreement. For example, service academies require a 6 year commitment to repay a 4 year degree. Of course, during that 6 years, you are being paid, well, and have no student loans. At the end of it, you come out a 27 year old O3/4 with good experience, a BS, and a work ethic. Win-win for everyone.
    But the question I think Cmakoize is posing is, should this be an OPTION for the industry, or should there be some form of REQUIREMENT of them to help fund college educations, in exchange for services?
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  10. #120
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    Now I know why you hate employers so much, LOL. (Joking) You worked for apple. I used to be one of their "geniuses"...which was code for the poor bastard that had to answer any number of idiotic questions over the phone...and yes, Apple was a horrible employer, demanded a LOT of personal time be spent on work related crap, like constantly learning new OS's, and new programs (ESPECIALLY when they went pentium), etc...with absolutely NO compensation for doing so, beyond the "Well....you get to keep your job..."...to which I answered, fine, fire me.
    They legally cannot do that, if they require additional training, they have to pay you to do it. I'd be saying "fine, fire me and I'll see you in court". Class action lawsuits are a wonderful thing.
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