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Thread: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

  1. #91
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    What, it turned you into a liberal?
    HAr har har.,....
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    Clearly, for most people, studying what may get you a decent job is rarely the same thing as studying what you're interested in.

    However, if students are to be expected to go to college primarily for the sake of their future employers, then employers should be paying the tuition, not the students, as the employer is the primary beneficiary of state-and-student-subsidized vocational training.

    I'm hard-pressed to think of any other context in which the student is expected to train and study primarily for the benefit of others...and yet the student is required to pay most of the costs of such training and study. At least if you're a monk or other kind of ascetic, some larger institution or community provides resources for you. Students (and their families), however, pay through the nose...and then they're supposed to ignore their own interests and cater their studies to what employers want on top of all that?!?

    This actually isn't so hard to track: simply tax the hell out of any business which requires its job applicants to have college degrees, and earmark those taxes for supporting public colleges and universities. If they don't want to get hit with that tax, then maybe they might consider no longer listing a completely irrelevant degree requirement for a god damn entry level office position (I was unemployed for about eight months recently, and I regularly encountered such postings).

    This could go either way, depending on one's values: we can drop the pretense and let the current system -- which is already overwhelmingly geared in favor of the interests of employers -- be openly identified as job training (in which case employers should pick up the tab)... or we could renew the classical notions of higher education as a real and substantive venue for exploration of the arts and sciences, incorporating it into a larger human drive to expand our knowledge and capabilities.
    Hey, look at that...you and I kinda agree on something....
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Textbooks only cover so much - some classes incorporate the real life experiences of the instructor and participation activities (like field trips and special events).

    Eventhough I've become miffed with the lack of quality for some of my courses - I can't deny that having a classroom environment that centers around discussion and such things is also extremely helpful.

    If you learn by the book you'll only know what's in the book - if the professor/college takes it seriously you'll learn much more.
    Very well said. I believe there's a lot of value in the classroom/campus experience and not all of that value can be captured in distance learning.

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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Here's the thing with college, guys.

    Our country, or, more to the point, our economy, operates on debt. What I mean to say by that is, loans are the engines that power what I like to call spending tomorrow's money today. Everything we do, in this country, we do on borrowed money. Pay rolls for the larger corporations are not actual in hand cash, it's with loans. Insurance, debt. So on and so forth. Once upon a time, the housing market provided all we needed, of the sort of debt needed, to power this type of economy. Then, the middle class started shrinking, back in the late 70s and early 80s. Less middles class, equals less home owners. Which, of course, equals fewer mortgages. In the 90s, our government tried implementing changes that would help more people get into houses, but that backfired, as we can all attest to. Turns out, there was a reason lenders had strict policies on qualification requirements for mortgages. Who knew? So now what is fueling our debt driven economy? College debt. We HAVE to keep student loans easily available, because they are now our greatest source of debt, which we need, in order to bundle up, and sell of to other companies in the form of securities. (My student loans have been sold 3 times...3 times, I have had to change who I make payments to.) Since college students tend to be younger, college loans are also more secure...they've got a LOOOOONG time to pay them off. Also, since bankruptcy does not forgive student loan debt, they are immune to the sort of issues that sent our economy into a funk a couple years ago, unlike mortgages. To add to all these great benefits, having a kid in debt means having guaranteed workers. It's take whatever job is out there, or lose your car. And that's good for our economy.




    Before getting all uppity, please realize that this post is dripping with what I hope reads as acidic sarcasm.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  5. #95
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    Clearly, for most people, studying what may get you a decent job is rarely the same thing as studying what you're interested in.

    However, if students are to be expected to go to college primarily for the sake of their future employers, then employers should be paying the tuition, not the students, as the employer is the primary beneficiary of state-and-student-subsidized vocational training.

    I'm hard-pressed to think of any other context in which the student is expected to train and study primarily for the benefit of others...and yet the student is required to pay most of the costs of such training and study. At least if you're a monk or other kind of ascetic, some larger institution or community provides resources for you. Students (and their families), however, pay through the nose...and then they're supposed to ignore their own interests and cater their studies to what employers want on top of all that?!?

    This actually isn't so hard to track: simply tax the hell out of any business which requires its job applicants to have college degrees, and earmark those taxes for supporting public colleges and universities. If they don't want to get hit with that tax, then maybe they might consider no longer listing a completely irrelevant degree requirement for a god damn entry level office position (I was unemployed for about eight months recently, and I regularly encountered such postings).

    This could go either way, depending on one's values: we can drop the pretense and let the current system -- which is already overwhelmingly geared in favor of the interests of employers -- be openly identified as job training (in which case employers should pick up the tab)... or we could renew the classical notions of higher education as a real and substantive venue for exploration of the arts and sciences, incorporating it into a larger human drive to expand our knowledge and capabilities.
    You have a point. But I think putting anything tax-wise on businesses would just encourage them to skirt the issue. Not decide it's not necessary; but put it 'under the table' for a requirement.

    Higher-education in general: I think it goes beyond that (or should I say - goes *earlier* than that). I think the issue starts with public schooling which is no longer sufficient for a reasonable job/career beyond highschool. It's set up poorly - 12 years . . . for what? Only to *have* to go onto college? Why? Is 16 / 17 years of of full-time education really necessary just to find employment these days to pay the bills? 12 years in school should be plenty for a job that really requires little 'working-skills and knowledge'

    It use to be that a high-school diploma was adequate for a semi-reasonable career or employment path in life. If you wanted to do better - you chose to go to college. The cost of college is a different issue altogether.

    In this day and age we have numerous peopel working mundane crap jobs *with* college degrees because their degrees are really just meaningless in the job-market - unnecessary.
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 05-14-12 at 08:17 PM.
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Textbooks only cover so much - some classes incorporate the real life experiences of the instructor and participation activities (like field trips and special events).

    Eventhough I've become miffed with the lack of quality for some of my courses - I can't deny that having a classroom environment that centers around discussion and such things is also extremely helpful.

    If you learn by the book you'll only know what's in the book - if the professor/college takes it seriously you'll learn much more.
    Not to pick nits, but if the information is not in a book, but comes from some secret stash of info the professor has, where did the professor get that knowledge? Most professors I have ever had went straight from student to teaching, not out in the world where they get practical experience.
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    Not to pick nits, but if the information is not in a book, but comes from some secret stash of info the professor has, where did the professor get that knowledge? Most professors I have ever had went straight from student to teaching, not out in the world where they get practical experience.
    My professors all have had careers in their field before they became professors, actually.

    My Anthropologist lived in Pullap and other countries for years doing cultural research - wrote several books on her findings, raised her familiy in Micronesia, etc. Only later in life did she come back to the US and pursue a career as a professor. She used her first-hand experience to help us better understand the role of anthropology and culture in life.

    My Geology Professor was an Oceanographer among other things for research, as well - worked for government, oil companies, other research facilities.

    My Information Technology professor worked as a programmer in cobalt and for a variety of technology companies/businesses like Microsoft.

    My Math professors have had jobs as statisticians, accountants, etc. My Social Problems instructor was the former mayor of his town and had a unique variety of input into politics, etc - from his first hand experience. My law professor was a lawyer for a while and then a legal counselor. Theater instructor was a director and choreographer . . .so on, so forth.

    Most professors have had lengthy careers long before exploring the idea of getting their MD to be able to teach a college level course. Becoming a professor seems to be a choice made only later in life - maybe after their career has fizzled or they're tired of things.

    A book can't expose you to the full depth of knowledge and experience that some of these people have had - and that means that some professors bring *a lot* of extras to their course - and others not so much. Who your professor is can really make or break how beneficial the class will be to you.
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 05-14-12 at 08:52 PM.
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Textbooks only cover so much - some classes incorporate the real life experiences of the instructor and participation activities (like field trips and special events).

    Eventhough I've become miffed with the lack of quality for some of my courses - I can't deny that having a classroom environment that centers around discussion and such things is also extremely helpful.

    If you learn by the book you'll only know what's in the book - if the professor/college takes it seriously you'll learn much more.
    It's not true that learning on your own means sticking to one textbook. Learning in the classroom does mean sticking to one professor's prejudices. The 6th Grade grammar of most college graduates proves* that they didn't have the ability to truly learn even such a basic subject.

    The Diploma Dumboes would say "prove," as Law School graduate Sen. Trent Lott said, "My choice of words were unfortunate."
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    People have ridiculous amounts of college debt that makes you shake your head...if you go to a school that costs a **** ton on loans then yeah..you're going to have a **** ton of college debt.

    I'm more sympathetic with the folks that go through state colleges and try to do things right and still end up with 50k or so...which is not easy to pay off.

    Edit: before people start thinking I have any sort motive for that view I had/have no college debt had scholarships and GI Bill so made money attending.
    Last edited by iliveonramen; 05-15-12 at 03:19 PM.
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    Re: A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

    My professors all have had careers in their field before they became professors, actually.
    Same here....I got the impression teaching ='d retiring for a lot of my professors.

    The only one's that didn't have careers were those that were adjunct professors working on their PHD's or masters etc.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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