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Thread: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

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    Re: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    No it's about acceptance and validation, basic needs every human desires. The whole 'equality' thing is thus a tool to achieve that end.
    You might have a point if that was what they where attempting to get legeslated. It's not so your point fails.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Let me just agree here and now that gays should be able to legally "marry" in the exact same "marriage" institution as heteros; it's still about acceptance and validation, basic needs every human desires. The whole 'equality' thing is thus a tool to achieve that end.
    For some yes it could be about acceptance and validation. Not all but some. But the main reason to legalize SSM is for equality under the law.

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    Re: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You might have a point if that was what they where attempting to get legeslated. It's not so your point fails.
    I disagree really. While I don't think it's the only thing they're fighting for, I do think it largely revolves around their goal.

    For example, if the desire was simply the ability to be able to be married, with that term, under the law I would expect far more court cases to have been focusing on the gender discrimination angle...which is already clearly a higher level of scrutiny under the EPC...than the homosexual angle. However, most seem to go with the homosexual discrimination argument. Why? The logical answer to me is because it's not just about getting the ABILITY to get married, it's getting the legal recognition and acceptance of homosexuality being on even keel....across the board...with other protected categories. I think a large reason to want that, especially considering theere's already a number of laws which already effectively give them that anyways, is because that when the LAW begins to view your group as equivilent to other "protected" groups then it becomes more likely that society will begin to see you that way as well. Similarly, part of the desire for gay marriage...even at the expense of potentially having the same rights through civil unions at times...is the principled notion of seperate but equal but also because I believe there's an understanding that the more you are no different than anyone else "under the law" the less society has to point to and take notice of to make view you as "different" as anyone else.

    I don't think the only intent is to push for societal acceptance and validation, and I don't think the movement believes you can actaully literally LEGISLATE societal acceptance and validation, but I do believe that a portion...and personally I think a large portion of it...is based around the general understanding that when something becomes legal and part of the law and the similar to other things under the law that it makes societal acceptance/validation of it far easier and quicker to obtain.

    There's nothing wrong with that...but acting like that's not at least a partial goal I think is being willfully ignorant or stubborning disagreeable on principle of not wanting to agree with people even partially who are stating it in an over the top manner.

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    Re: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Well possibly because you read "rectangle" as "triangle". That may be your first issue.
    In truth, when I read:
    I think it's more that he believes part of loving someone, to him, is trusting that person....
    ...my eyes just sort of slid off the page.

    Words are not subjective, if love includes trust 'to him', then he's wrong.
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-14-12 at 04:51 PM.

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    Re: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    The news article's title is deliberately deceptive. As noted by Jerry, she wasn't arrested for seeking a marriage licence, she was arrested for making a scene and refusing to leave.
    That's what civil disobedience is all about.

    You go, girls!!
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    Re: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I disagree really. While I don't think it's the only thing they're fighting for, I do think it largely revolves around their goal.

    For example, if the desire was simply the ability to be able to be married, with that term, under the law I would expect far more court cases to have been focusing on the gender discrimination angle...which is already clearly a higher level of scrutiny under the EPC...than the homosexual angle. However, most seem to go with the homosexual discrimination argument. Why? The logical answer to me is because it's not just about getting the ABILITY to get married, it's getting the legal recognition and acceptance of homosexuality being on even keel....across the board...with other protected categories. I think a large reason to want that, especially considering theere's already a number of laws which already effectively give them that anyways, is because that when the LAW begins to view your group as equivilent to other "protected" groups then it becomes more likely that society will begin to see you that way as well. Similarly, part of the desire for gay marriage...even at the expense of potentially having the same rights through civil unions at times...is the principled notion of seperate but equal but also because I believe there's an understanding that the more you are no different than anyone else "under the law" the less society has to point to and take notice of to make view you as "different" as anyone else.

    I don't think the only intent is to push for societal acceptance and validation, and I don't think the movement believes you can actaully literally LEGISLATE societal acceptance and validation, but I do believe that a portion...and personally I think a large portion of it...is based around the general understanding that when something becomes legal and part of the law and the similar to other things under the law that it makes societal acceptance/validation of it far easier and quicker to obtain.

    There's nothing wrong with that...but acting like that's not at least a partial goal I think is being willfully ignorant or stubborning disagreeable on principle of not wanting to agree with people even partially who are stating it in an over the top manner.
    Prop 8 is going the gender discrimination angle at least partly. It is more irrelevant to the DOMA cases. In all those cases however, the legal arguments used are many and designed with an intent to win. The lawyers are using all the amunition they can bring to bear. The argument against civil unions instead of SSM is not acceptance, but legal practicality. Seperate catagories has historically not worked well in getting full rights.

    As you point out, you cannot logically get social acceptance through legislation. Through legislation what gays and their supporters are trying to geet is those things denied to them through legislation.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

    All I see the gay rights movement as is a money grab. But hey, you want a small, very small in fact, slice of your over-inflated tax dollars back, sure, why not. Have at it. You're going to pay more in the long run anyway.

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    Re: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    As you point out, you cannot logically get social acceptance through legislation.
    That line's a tricky one....

    You can not LEGISLATE social acceptance.

    You can gain social acceptance through legislation though.

    I know that seems counter intuitive, but it's not.

    You can't go "You will accept gays on a personal level" as a law and expect that to cause social acceptance. That's attempting to LEGISLATE the acceptance.

    However, if you pass legislations that essentially makes the legal treatment of gays, both in the private and public sector, equal to that of non-gays then you can possibly find that social acceptance follows such legislation because one of the big barriers that makes them appear different...how they're generally treated by various entites that are touched by the legislation...goes away. In that case you got social acceptance, in part, through legislation but you didn't legislate the acceptance.

    I know it's a bit of a chicken and the egg type of thing, but I do think there's a different. It's kind of like saying that you can't parent your kid healthy, but if you make your kid play basketball and eat well then you're making him healthy thorugh parenting. (that sentence structure fails a bit -.-)

    Does that make sense at all, even if you don't agree?

    Actually, I got it! The perfect analogy for you

    You can't simply book that a wrestler is over. IE you can't just go out and go "We're going to just put this guy out there in the main event and say he's over, and thus he'll be over". But you cant get a wrestler over through booking.

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    Re: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    That line's a tricky one....

    You can not LEGISLATE social acceptance.

    You can gain social acceptance through legislation though.

    I know that seems counter intuitive, but it's not.

    You can't go "You will accept gays on a personal level" as a law and expect that to cause social acceptance. That's attempting to LEGISLATE the acceptance.

    However, if you pass legislations that essentially makes the legal treatment of gays, both in the private and public sector, equal to that of non-gays then you can possibly find that social acceptance follows such legislation because one of the big barriers that makes them appear different...how they're generally treated by various entites that are touched by the legislation...goes away. In that case you got social acceptance, in part, through legislation but you didn't legislate the acceptance.

    I know it's a bit of a chicken and the egg type of thing, but I do think there's a different. It's kind of like saying that you can't parent your kid healthy, but if you make your kid play basketball and eat well then you're making him healthy thorugh parenting. (that sentence structure fails a bit -.-)

    Does that make sense at all, even if you don't agree?

    Actually, I got it! The perfect analogy for you

    You can't simply book that a wrestler is over. IE you can't just go out and go "We're going to just put this guy out there in the main event and say he's over, and thus he'll be over". But you cant get a wrestler over through booking.
    You get a like for the wrestling analogy.

    You can legislate legal acceptance, but social acceptance is not necessarily going to follow, certainly not any time soon. To use a popular example in SSM arguments, miscegenation. It was legal long before it was widely accepted, and I would argue that it was not the legalization which made it accepted, but changing views on race. What gays want, contrary to Jerry and his strategy of making **** up, is legal acceptance through legislation.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You get a like for the wrestling analogy.

    You can legislate legal acceptance, but social acceptance is not necessarily going to follow, certainly not any time soon. To use a popular example in SSM arguments, miscegenation. It was legal long before it was widely accepted, and I would argue that it was not the legalization which made it accepted, but changing views on race. What gays want, contrary to Jerry and his strategy of making **** up, is legal acceptance through legislation.
    What else could it possibly be? You're saying that they want legal acceptance through legislation? LOL Really?


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