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Thread: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

  1. #191
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    Re: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

    Quote Originally Posted by differentDEM View Post
    wow arrested?! LOL
    I wonder how the cops went about that???
    "Get on the ground now and drop the lesbian marriage license NOW!"

    (This country is ridiculous for how it treats its citizens)
    Why don't they go and fight real crime? All they do down here is pull over speeders and chase around pot heads... (I hate the South)
    Did you even read what transpired? She practiced civil disobedience as protest, broke the law, and was arrested.
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    Re: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post

    All can marry someone.
    Cough....no one was denying you could marry SOMEONE.....that wasn't the point. (moving the goal posts, but carry on)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    No, all cannot marry who they choose, regardless of their motivation for marriage. The all in this case includes males who choose to marry males and females who choose to marry females.

    You missed the most basic part of the discussion.

    Try again.

    All are also denied marrying the same category of person that everyone else is denied marrying. If I wish to marry someone of the same sex, I cannot. Thus, I am denied the same thing as others who may wish to do so as well.
    Not only have you destroyed your first "all can marry" argument, you provide nothing from the state view that justifies a reason for denying the basic right to marry someone, who in this case is someone of the same sex. You can cite that the denial is equally applied, but that means nothing without a state rationale.
    Last edited by Gimmesometruth; 05-12-12 at 06:31 PM.
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  3. #193
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    Re: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

    Quote Originally Posted by katiegrrl0 View Post
    Why do you bring it up if you don't want people to respond.

    I did not bring up the laws and oppression in other nations.

    You point out what these people go through and want no one to say anything.

    Why note get a pad of sticky notes and write posts to yourself. By the end of the day your desk will be full of your thoughts with no response.

    Why do you make a ridiculous statement about theocracies what is going on overseas like our problem is nothing.

    It is our problem. They have theirs. We fight for our issues they do not in most cases.
    I'm perfectly fine with people responding to my posts, it'd be more enjoyable, however, if they took the time to read them.

    Obviously, my original post was in response to another poster who made the fraudulent comparison.

    False. I'm in favor of gay marriage.

    Not really interested in personal jabs, Sorry.

    Not trying to marginalize attempts at equality here, just stating that comparing the two situations is downright silly.

  4. #194
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    Re: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Cough....no one was denying you could marry SOMEONE.....that wasn't the point.
    Of course it is, when you take the motivation for WHY someone wants to marry out of it, as YOU, not I, insist on doing.


    Not only have you destroyed your first "all can marry" argument,
    No, I have not, because all CAN marry. Is there any a single, competent adult who can't marry? If so, please specify.


    you provide nothing from the state view that justifies a reason for denying the basic right to marry someone of the same sex.
    I don't have to, because I'm not arguing that it should be denied.



    You can cite that the denial is equally applied, but that means nothing without a state rationale.
    You're the one who says a reason for marriage is irrelevant.

    And as you're the one who says this, tell me, specifically -- if I can't marry someone of the same sex, and someone else can't marry someone of the same sex, what do I have which is denied to that other person? Spell it out.
    Last edited by Harshaw; 05-12-12 at 06:33 PM.
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  5. #195
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    Re: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Eh, it can be. I think actually, by and large, it's a relatively weak one. I think it's a style of protest that generally has a low floor and a low ceiling with the potential to rarely but occasionally have a huge boom possibility. I think for it to be a significantly stronger form of protest, or more important in my mind a strong form of impacting change (since that's generally the goal of a protest), you need a relatively specific set of circumstances to create the situation where it'll give you far more bang for your buck. I think in most instances there are more effective and useful means of protesting. At least from an outside, macro stand point.

    I will say, from an internal type of thing, I could see it as being one of the more REWARDING types of protesting, as you get an immediate response to your actions and an ability right off to feel like you've actually DONE something even if that is as simple as getting a blurb in the news or causing those you disagree with some annoyance. But in terms of actually accomplishing anything in terms of your theoretical goal in regards to affecting change....more often then not I think its a generally weak method to go with.
    Really, how did it manage to change the rights for people from India in South Afrika? How did it manage to set India free from British rule? The civil rights movement in the US was driven by civil disobedience with a leader like Martin Luther King. The beginning of rights for gays began at Stonewall Inn with an act of civil disobedience. Even the Vietnam was affected by the burning of draft cards. The end of the draft in the US was brought about by those acts of civil disobedience. There are scores of examples of how this method has altered the course of a people and nations. Yes those disobedient need to be able to suffer the blows from their oppressor. But in the case of freedoms there are many causes for which I would give my life. It is a call to stand for self.
    Only when the oppressed say no I will not abide and fall subject to unfair practice do we begin to see the light of day. Had the gays at Stonewall Inn allowed themselves to be arrested and harassed by police as they always did gay/lesbian rights would be nowhere today.
    I can't see a better way without the use of violence and that is not acceptable in my mind.
    Even Union strikes have worked to establish labor as a force. So I would disagree that this is a weak way to change things.
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  6. #196
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    Re: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Hmmm...

    Off hand. I think petitions, boycotts, etc can be a strong on average form of protesting to affect change then civil disobedience. The reason I say this isn't because they're any more likely to affect change themselves (Though in general I think they are) but because of the inherent nature in them of essentially evangelism of your point. For a petition or boycott to actually be successful one must successfully encourage others to engage in such a thing with you. This means talking to people, explaining to them why they should go along with your side, and encouraging them to spread the word. Petitions, less so with boycotts, also I think in general invoke a less heated response by those who already oppose the notion than CD does which means I think it provides a higher motivational benefit to your own side than the motivation it provides to the other side to oppose you. So I think in terms of bang for your buck on an average situation, those two are strong. Actual organized traditional "protests" as well I think are a bit stronger on average, though I think HOW a group conducts themselves during such a protest can greatly affect it. The traditional notion of a "protest" is the type of thing that I think has a low floor and high ceiling giving a lot of room for how it could go. That's a couple off the top of my head.

    What I would say towards Civil Disobedience is that while I believe, on average, it is a relatively low bang for your buck and tends not to be very effective especially compared to its negatives....I think that given the right circumstances and situations, while rare, it has the potential when it Booms to have one of the highest Booms of any form of protest. But it's a lot like gambling, where far more often than not you're losing all your cash rather than hitting the jackpot. But when you hit that jackpot, it's a damn progressive slot and those coins just keep rolling.

    Again, this isn't saying Civil Disobedience is BAD. I see it as a perfectly legitimate and fine form of protest and as long as the individual doing it has the principled stance and perseverance and understanding that part of what makes Civil Disobedience what it is and effective is the fact you do it understanding and accepting the notion that punishment for it WILL happen because you ARE breaking the law. My only issue with people who perform Civil Disobedience that has me actually having a problem with them doing it, not just possibly disagreeing with WHY they're doing it or thinking it isn't smart that they're doing it, is when they do it and then bitch, whine, complain, and cry foul that they actually got in TROUBLE for it. The fact and understanding that you're going to get in trouble is part of what goes hand in hand with the benefits of performing such a protest.
    If you are suggesting something like the sanctions against nations the world sets in place they don't work. They harm the weakest of citizens and never punish those who the world has the problem with. I have see boycotts go on endlessly and do nothing at all. I have even seen limited boycotts of movies fail. In fact they drove public opinion the other way. I'm not sure I have ever seen a petition set free a nation.
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    Re: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    In other words Zyph, its all about the PR.

    If this woman were smart, she would have found a way to do it to make those who arrested to look like horrible people or part of a horrible system to gain sympathy for her cause.
    PR drives every movement to success. Consider that gays and lesbians make up about 3 or 4% of the population. I have read strange polls that say it could be as high as 8% but I question those. Yet public opinion is with us to the tone of about 50% and getting stronger everyday. It is about public relations as is any protest. Even petitions are public opinion.
    The flame that is between us could set every soul on fire. I would love to take that heat and let's fill the whole world with desire.
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  8. #198
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    Re: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Of course it is, when you take the motivation for WHY someone wants to marry out of it, and YOU, not I, insist on doing.
    I was not "removing" the motivation, the motivation was not the subject at all. The subject was whether marriage is a civil right. Again, you skipped over the entire argument between American, Kate, Zyph and I.




    No, I have not, because all CAN marry. Is there any a single, competent adult who can't marry? If so, please specify.
    Again, the out of context semantic argument, this argument is specifically about SSM.




    I don't have to, because I'm not arguing that it should be denied.
    OK...fine, you are not going to support your underlying argument about rights being denied....sort of pointless....but then most of your debates are, they are simply arguments to nothing.





    You're the one who says a reason for marriage is irrelevant.
    It is in the context of whether marriage is a civil right. You AGAIN are leaving out the CONTEXT of the debate.

    And as you're the one who says this, tell me, specifically -- if I can't marry someone of the same sex, and someone else can't marry someone of the same sex, what do I have which is denied to that other person? Spell it out.
    You are arguing within the framework that marriage is limited to heterosexual unions. The question at hand, is whether one has a right to marrying someone of the same sex, outside of the traditional framework. I thought everyone understood that BASIC point.

    Any other red herrings you want to toss out?
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    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  9. #199
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    Re: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

    Quote Originally Posted by Hare View Post
    I'm perfectly fine with people responding to my posts, it'd be more enjoyable, however, if they took the time to read them.

    Obviously, my original post was in response to another poster who made the fraudulent comparison.

    False. I'm in favor of gay marriage.

    Not really interested in personal jabs, Sorry.

    Not trying to marginalize attempts at equality here, just stating that comparing the two situations is downright silly.
    If there is a misunderstanding I take the blame.
    The flame that is between us could set every soul on fire. I would love to take that heat and let's fill the whole world with desire.
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  10. #200
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    Re: Lesbian arrested for seeking marriage license in North Carolina

    Quote Originally Posted by gmeyers1944 View Post
    I have always been a big fan of civil rights, particularly where race is involved. But marriage MEANS the union of one man with one woman. Publishing dictionaries with a different definition does NOT change that.
    I understand where you are going, but you are wrong for several reasons:

    1. For most of the world's history marriage has been between one man and several women.

    2. Society defines marriage, not a dictionary. As a result, if society finds gay marriage acceptable then it is by definition marriage.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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