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Thread: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

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    Re: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnny_rebson View Post
    Exactly. Because of our nation's Christian history and heritage, non-Christian school children should be required to learn Christianity.
    I don't think that's necessary. Do you?

    But they should certainly learn of the influence Christianity had on the formation of their country. It seems many remain in the dark on this part of their history, or are being taught an alternate version.

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    Re: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    No, I don't. What would be the purpose?



    It was founded on Christian ideals. It's a pity that children are being raised without any understanding of their heritage. This "why isn't God mentioned in the Constitution" argument is frequently mentioned by Leftists as a sort of 'gotcha', but in fact it means nothing.

    The confusion just over that one line in the Constitution strongly suggests that there is a lack of education and understanding about what made America so outstanding in world history, and why it became the symbol of freedom throughout the world. Now that freedom they once enjoyed is disappearing and that is largely the result of the American education system not teaching their students about their own history, or why it was tyhat made America special.



    This was a sop to the Muslims of the day, just as is often done now. It's not wise to take these lines with tyrannical Muslims too seriously, though many of those who want to minimize the influence of Christianity on western democracies certainly do.
    This country was not founded on "Christian ideals" no matter how much clowns like David Barton claim it was.

    To speak of "that one line in the Constitution" without mentioning the last sentence in Article 6 of the Constitution shows some ignorance of the thoughts the Founders had about religious interference with government. Despite that phrase having to do with "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States", we see a rather legalistic understanding of it, in that one party blatantly declares its candidates must be religious while the other party accedes to such demands without being outspoken on the matter. "Legalistic" because those who demand religiosity can say "Well, there's no legal requirement to hold office, but that don't mean we won't demand our candidates strongly profess their faith before we will support them"

    The Treaty of Tripoli was a "sop to Muslims"? It was a treaty of peace between two nations.

    There is a vast difference between Christian influence on western culture and its supposed influence on "western democracies". For 90% of its existence, Christianity supported authoritarian rule over the western nations. It was only following the success of democratic-ruled nations over authoritarian cultures did Christianity jump onboard and try to claim credit.

    A few Thomas Jefferson quotes regarding his thoughts on religious influence over govenments
    The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man (Letter to J. Moor, 1800).

    The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion (Letter to Benjamin Rush, 1800).

    History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes (Letter to von Humboldt, 1813).

    In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own
    (Letter to H. Spafford, 1814).
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    This country was not founded on "Christian ideals" no matter how much clowns like David Barton claim it was.
    Yeah, okay you've convinced me.

    The Treaty of Tripoli was a "sop to Muslims"? It was a treaty of peace between two nations.
    That was in reference to a specific line in the treaty which, coming in late, you didn't notice.

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    Re: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

    A good opinion piece was written about this subject in American Thinker in 2007...


    Judeo-Christian Values have a foundational role in America, beginning with the Declaration of Independence:
    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..."
    Since the pursuit of happiness, as Sigmund Freud surmised, is tied to human love and to creative work and play, the principles of American Judeo-Christian Values can rightly be summarized as the honoring of God-given Life, Liberty and Creativity. This seed of American Social Justice was then fleshed out in the U.S. Constitution through reason and common sense, unencumbered by the dysfunctional religious and secular traditions and laws of Old Europe.

    Our Founding Fathers separated church from state, but they wisely did not separate God from state; they acknowledged God as the source of our rights, and, in fact, they were careful to place Biblical morality directly into our founding documents and laws, and into our values and culture precisely to help prevent a future of totalitarian or tyrannical rule in America. The combination of keeping Judeo-Christian religious morality in the state, as opposed to the church it's self; and, additionally, setting up our laws based on reason and common sense has contributed to the American Character, and to what is known as "American Exceptionalism."

    Archived-Articles: The Judeo-Christian Values of America

    More recently Dr. Cherry wrote an understanding of Socialist/Marxist ideology that I think is spot on here:

    Understanding and reversing the American Marxist counter-revolution

    So with the famous Karl Marx quote of "Religion being the opiate of the masses" Socialists see religion as a threat of magnitude that parallels Socialism, therefore religious freedom must be mocked, derided, stamped out as a source of organizational power.

    This is what I think we see from the left today in political terms....It is dangerous, and a bastardization that can not be allowed to take hold for those who believe in our experiment in freedom, and exceptionalism.....


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Yeah, okay you've convinced me.



    That was in reference to a specific line in the treaty which, coming in late, you didn't notice.
    Sorry, but I know exactly which line was being noted as I'm quite familiar with its usage in debates over the "christian origins" of our national govenment.

    Yeah, sure I've "convinced" you. Your earlier posts have shown us what you believe and that you also prefer not taking the time to investigate the basis for your beliefs. It ain't something that the Google will do for you in a couple of minutes. It does not require a university level course in early America but it does take at least a few hours of reading and comparing not only original documents but also historical analysis undertaken over the past 100+ years. Always examining the source and its purpose in why it makes certain statements and claims.

    One of the more interesting grad courses I took was one in which we looked at the way in which personal bias and prejudice affects historians and their work. To keep modern prejudice to a minimum in the classroom, we examined explanations for the decline and fall of the Roman Empire, starting with the classic work by Gibbons and continuing on to the work of 20th C. academics in that one subject. There were some crazy guys in the field over the years that were obviously off track and funny but the purpose of the class was to make us more self-aware of our own biases and the ways in which that might affect our work in the future.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Not mine.

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    Right, whoever bought the poster, assuming it was perchised with tax money at all, can take the $5 out of the taxes I paid, not the taxes you paid.

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    Re: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Right, whoever bought the poster, assuming it was perchised with tax money at all, can take the $5 out of the taxes I paid, not the taxes you paid.
    When I can opt-out of paying for the invasion of Iraq, then maybe that'll be an option, too. Either way, though, the government has no business trying to run churches.
    "All that stuff I was taught about evolution, embryology, Big Bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell [the bible] teaches us how to run all our public policy and everything in society." Rep. Paul Broun (R)

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    Re: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    When I can opt-out of paying for the invasion of Iraq, then maybe that'll be an option, too. Either way, though, the government has no business trying to run churches.

    So hanging a poster of the ten commandments for you is tantamount to making war on a country?....Wow.

    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    So hanging a poster of the ten commandments for you is tantamount to making war on a country?....Wow.

    j-mac
    Did I say that, or are you making stuff up? Point is, you can't pick and choose what taxes you want to pay. If you could, I wouldn't pay for invading Iraq.

    Either way, though, running establishments for the proselytization, practice, and teaching of religion isn't the government's job. That's what churches are here for, not what governments are here for. If you think the churches aren't doing a good enough job, then start some new churches . . . don't ask the government to do it for you.
    "All that stuff I was taught about evolution, embryology, Big Bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell [the bible] teaches us how to run all our public policy and everything in society." Rep. Paul Broun (R)

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    Re: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    Did I say that, or are you making stuff up? Point is, you can't pick and choose what taxes you want to pay. If you could, I wouldn't pay for invading Iraq.
    Ok, so your words are only to be taken of the literal sense. Understood. However, that is a tough road to hoe. As humans often read what you write and understand the communicated meaning of what it is you are trying to relate. Sometimes we get it right, sometimes not, and sometimes we get it right, and those who say it don't want that known.....

    Either way, though, running establishments for the proselytization, practice, and teaching of religion isn't the government's job. That's what churches are here for, not what governments are here for. If you think the churches aren't doing a good enough job, then start some new churches . . . don't ask the government to do it for you.
    Agreed, and who said I wanted the government to do it for me? As far as I understand it was a student that hung the poster. And there are not religious classes at the school so, being pissed about a poster is just a little stupid if you ask me. And I wonder why it is that those people that bring such stupid cases are so afraid of seeing the words on a poster hung in a hallway?


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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