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Thread: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

  1. #131
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    Re: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    So when you said "Enlightenment values, not Judeo-Christian principle", you actually meant the Age of Enlightenment values? How does that change the meaning of the word?

    And do you understand the values of that period? How did those values differ from the founders of the United States?.
    Your post at 9:19 PM tonight
    Where do you suppose that enlightenment came from?

    This is the sort of thing that happens when children are not taught their heritage in schools.
    I read this as a comment using "enlightenment" in a way we sometimes hear from preachers where the word is defined as "the state of being enlightened: to live in spiritual enlightenment."

    The Enlightenment was a philosophical school of thought which for the most part rejected theological thinking as too restrictive. It combined the new knowledge that was being gained thru scientific experimentation with different ways of looking at human governance, ways other than the divine right of monarchs to rule over their subjects. Philosophy in the 18th C had a very different meaning than it does at this time.

    "How did those values differ from the founders of the United States?" They didn't and that is the point, Enlightenment thinking provided an alternative to the traditional Judeo-Christian pattern of the years since the Roman Empire.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    For some reason the Library of Congress disagrees with you



    MY point however had to do with the claim made by the Reverend Willson that Jefferson was unsuitable for the Presidency because he - Thomas Jefferson - was not a Christian - which you would have read if you had bothered to click thru and read the sermon.
    jeffersons words and phrases were used,but he was nit there during the creation of the constitution.there were many who created the constitution.

    btw jefferson was for small govt and extremely conservative by todays standards,yet madison who wrote the bill of rights that supported religious freedom was a federalist,or by todays standards borderline socialist.so you support the far right guy but call the left wrong??????
    “[The metric system is the tool of the Devil! My car gets forty rods to the hogshead, and that’s the way I likes it!” – Abe “Grampa” Simpson”

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    Re: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Um, the Magna Carta, John Locke, Polybius, and Montesquieuand? Oh and habeus corpus (1679) and the Petition of Right (1628), the Bill of Rights (1689), and the Act of Settlement (1701)?
    You forgot English Common Law for your list
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Um, the Magna Carta, John Locke, Polybius, and Montesquieuand? Oh and habeus corpus (1679) and the Petition of Right (1628), the Bill of Rights (1689), and the Act of Settlement (1701)?
    But why stop there? Do you know what inspired all of this?

    The most revolutionary idea in the history of mankind was the idea that the poor, like the rich, had a soul and were recognized as equals in the eyes of God. This is central to the teachings of Jesus, Christianity and all that comes after it in the Christian world. These teachings are still reverberating in the world today. Of course those historical references you referred to are all from the Christian world. The non Christian world is, and was, quite different.

    But as this is not being taught in most schools today many students, and adults, will remain ignorant of their heritage and thus the world around them. They think it all happened naturally, that values just rise up from nowhere in particular, and the traditions they inherited will somehow continue uninterrupted into the future.
    Last edited by Grant; 05-12-12 at 11:54 PM.

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    Re: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

    Liberals would love to get it down to 6, then 4, then 2, then none at all. Or they could rewrite them and claim it's a sin to be rich.

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    Re: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnny_rebson View Post
    Liberals would love to get it down to 6, then 4, then 2, then none at all. Or they could rewrite them and claim it's a sin to be rich.
    thats not the point at hand
    “[The metric system is the tool of the Devil! My car gets forty rods to the hogshead, and that’s the way I likes it!” – Abe “Grampa” Simpson”

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    Re: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    jeffersons words and phrases were used,but he was nit there during the creation of the constitution.there were many who created the constitution.

    btw jefferson was for small govt and extremely conservative by todays standards,yet madison who wrote the bill of rights that supported religious freedom was a federalist,or by todays standards borderline socialist.so you support the far right guy but call the left wrong??????
    Wow! that is so far out there, it is impossible to answer. The governing philosophies of the two men have very little to do with your modernising analogies.

    By the definitions of the 18th C, an advocate for small government was a radical liberal. Conservatives were the ones who supported strong central government because that was what they had always known, therefore they wanted to conserve their heritage.

    This is always a problem with discussing matters of the past with those who have not studied history in an academic setting but instead get their 'history' from clowns like David Barton and Glenn Beck.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Wow! that is so far out there, it is impossible to answer. The governing philosophies of the two men have very little to do with your modernising analogies.

    By the definitions of the 18th C, an advocate for small government was a radical liberal. Conservatives were the ones who supported strong central government because that was what they had always known, therefore they wanted to conserve their heritage.

    This is always a problem with discussing matters of the past with those who have not studied history in an academic setting but instead get their 'history' from clowns like David Barton and Glenn Beck.
    it doesnt,but simply put madison is the authority on the first amendment,not jefferson.

    using jefferson for the first amendment would be the same as using obama as the authority for the second amendment,he didnt write,he didnt participate in it,so why are people using him instead of the person who wrote it as to what it means.

    simple answer,the person who wrote it doesnt agree with you,therefore you seek to find someone who does or simply argue that amendments are out of date just because they block your cause.
    “[The metric system is the tool of the Devil! My car gets forty rods to the hogshead, and that’s the way I likes it!” – Abe “Grampa” Simpson”

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    Re: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

    the poor, ... had a soul and were recognized as equals in the eyes of God
    But not in the eyes of society until the 20th Century.

    and then there was that whole ordinance about how servants were to behave - don't sound like equality to me
    Colossians 3:22
    Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.
    or perhaps you meant the poor in spirit found in Matthew 5:3 - who probably have a truly crappy life on earth but they shall have the "kingdom of heaven", so they shouldn't worry too much about how life sucks while they are alive.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

  10. #140
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    Re: Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

    We have really wandered away from the topic, interesting though the diversion has been.

    Should American public schools be allowed to display posters, banners, signs, monuments, etc that are directly related to a specific religious belief?
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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