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Thread: Obama Declares Support For Gay Marriage

  1. #191
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    Re: Obama Declares Support For Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    It seems they'd have a much better ad if they had concentrated on those other elements... so as to say "to some, it may seem like I've had the same position as Romney up until recently, but there are in fact longstanding differences. And, while we've both changed our views, we're moving in opposite directions...etc. etc."
    I agree. In watching the ad, my first thought was that this ad is strongly overstated and kind of a blunder. As I watched the rest of the ad, its message was toned down and actually was quite accurate in its depiction. That said....I think we are dealing with the politics of politics and the 5 second mentality of the average voter. I think Obama sought to capitalize on this and as a result I think the ad is a poor one overall.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Obama Declares Support For Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    Do you think it will result in a net loss of votes?
    Of course it will, and not just because taking a stand on any controversial issue costs a candidate votes. Contrary to what some pundits are trying to sell us, this isn't a zero sum equation involving egalitarians and traditionalists voting for Democrats and Republicans as they would otherwise. There is a significant group of religious swing voters for whom this may be a dealbreaker. Note how he reflected their concerns as he mentioned "evolving" past his own religious feelings to this position. This leads us to:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    A prudent candidate wouldn't choose to do that.
    A good point, with which I would agree if this were as close as the news services and hustings hustlers indicate. However, both of the latter have a vested interest in showing us only those polls that suggest a tight, exciting election. Obviously, Obama has seen all the polls and knows he has some political capital to spend. Note that he is addressing this issue very early in the process, just as he did with his parentage and Reverend Jeremiah White in 2008. That he is getting this out of the way at the outset is, itself, an indication of what he thinks the net impact would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Don't be so sure -- it very well could. Courage, honestly and integrity are some of the most powerful forces in the universe. People are draw[n] to a courageous leader.

    Even the most anti-gay types are aware of the risk he took. Some have tried to spin it as a 'political' move. Given the sincerity of his comments yesterday (especially about Biden); I think the boldness may draw more people in.
    I'd like to agree but if courage were decisive we might be watching Newt Gingrich, buttressed by his statement about right wing social engineering, squaring off against incumbent president John McCain, who had the cojones to stand up to birther nonsense. All too often we appreciate the courage of our allies only. As Wake intimates, one thing is clear: a few more such acts of courage and Obama could yet make a race out of a rout.

    -o-

  3. #193
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    Re: Obama Declares Support For Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    no, but if my contract is to cut hair, my license to cut hair in one state isn't valid in the other. the state is going to make me get a new license, while my private contract with the employer for employment remains in tact.
    You are still trying to mix the two, a license with a contract. The license would be permission from the government to cut a person's hair. This is regulated by the laws of the state and a person could easily just decide to not cut someone's hair and no contract is being broken. While many private contracts come with a requirement to be legally licensed in the state where you work, that is not how a marriage contract works and it has never been deemed to work this way. The license is merely permission from the government to enter into the contract. That is the only reason it is called a license. The marriage itself is a contract between the two people.

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    I agree that the license is a stupid waste of money, but it is an actual thing that exists, and differs wildly from state to state, and appears to be safe from the same types of fears that give us legislation such as DOMA
    Which is exactly why being able to enter into a marriage should be one of those things that doesn't vary widely from state to state. The only thing that should vary widely concerning marriage laws from state to state, is the laws and benefits that apply to marriage state to state.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Obama Declares Support For Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    Do you think it will result in a net loss of votes?
    I don't think the homophobic base was leaning his way anyway.

  5. #195
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    Re: Obama Declares Support For Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You are still trying to mix the two, a license with a contract. The license would be permission from the government to cut a person's hair. This is regulated by the laws of the state and a person could easily just decide to not cut someone's hair and no contract is being broken. While many private contracts come with a requirement to be legally licensed in the state where you work, that is not how a marriage contract works and it has never been deemed to work this way. The license is merely permission from the government to enter into the contract. That is the only reason it is called a license. The marriage itself is a contract between the two people.
    I'm not mixing the two, I'm just pointing out how your analogy of an employment contract must still adhere to state requirements.

    That we entered into this agreement in one state does not mean another state must allow me to cut hair. They can still refuse to grant me a license to cut hair, why can't they refuse to grant me a license to be married?

    Which is exactly why being able to enter into a marriage should be one of those things that doesn't vary widely from state to state. The only thing that should vary widely concerning marriage laws from state to state, is the laws and benefits that apply to marriage state to state.
    This is what we are really talking about anyway. A state can't force the federal govenrment from recognizing the marriage and awarding federal benefits, but it sure seems like it can refuse to grant state benefits without a state license.

  6. #196
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    Re: Obama Declares Support For Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    I'm not mixing the two, I'm just pointing out how your analogy of an employment contract must still adhere to state requirements.

    That we entered into this agreement in one state does not mean another state must allow me to cut hair. They can still refuse to grant me a license to cut hair, why can't they refuse to grant me a license to be married?
    Except the employment contract wouldn't really be adhering to the state requirements. The contract is to work for the other person. So, you have certain qualifications that you must meet to be able to work for that person. If those qualifications are not met, then the contract can be made null and void.

    And other state licenses also aren't one time use things. They may expire after a certain date and require renewal, but they aren't like the marriage license where you get it signed and that basically turns it into the contract. The license part is purely about getting permission to enter into the contract.

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    This is what we are really talking about anyway. A state can't force the federal govenrment from recognizing the marriage and awarding federal benefits, but it sure seems like it can refuse to grant state benefits without a state license.
    This is actually a bit confusing on what they can and can't do. And I think we might end up seeing this more than just on same sex marriage in the next few years. There are already some people who have marriages that they don't know if they are really recognized or not by the state they are living in, either because of a sex change for one of the parties or because of their blood ties being too close. Half the states allow first cousins to marry, the other half don't. Some states restrict step-siblings and even inlaws from being married. Others have restrictions that go further back in blood. All these marriages are recognized by the federal government. And there is even a good chance that many are being recognized in those states where they couldn't have actually gotten married because that isn't going to be something that is checked up on for every new couple moving into the state.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Obama Declares Support For Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    I wonder how many that have praised him, realized he said that states should decide. Um, that kinda means he supports what NC did, for they decided. Hmm..
    Since Obama has always thought that marriage was a state issue then he hasn't really changed his opinion, but only clarified it. I think he found a compromise between his faith and his politics. He did stress that his Christian faith teaches "do unto others as you have them do unto you." Sounds like he still believes in equality as well.

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    Re: Obama Declares Support For Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    So, do away with the idea of "sexual orientation" or what?
    See post 155

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    Re: Obama Declares Support For Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    I agree. In watching the ad, my first thought was that this ad is strongly overstated and kind of a blunder. As I watched the rest of the ad, its message was toned down and actually was quite accurate in its depiction. That said....I think we are dealing with the politics of politics and the 5 second mentality of the average voter. I think Obama sought to capitalize on this and as a result I think the ad is a poor one overall.
    It's campaign season. Aren't the candidates supposed to state their positions so people can decide who to vote for? Helloooo. As it stands, the two candidates share a lot of the same ideas on many issues so in effect, Obama has just shown there actually is a difference between him and Romney. And too, he's getting this particular message on Gay rights out there early on in his campaign so he can move on to other more pertinent issues the closer it gets to election day rather than letting the GOP determine what and when he should do it. It sure has reved up the Gay community I can tell you that. lol So I guess I really don't understand your logic that the ad was a poor choice.
    Last edited by Moot; 05-10-12 at 05:26 PM.

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    Re: Obama Declares Support For Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    This is actually a bit confusing on what they can and can't do.
    that's what I am saying. It is very confusing.

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