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Thread: Final insult of Qaeda clowns

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    Re: Final insult of Qaeda clowns

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    which is why no one, except for you (to my knowledge), has said that people like Hicup are "exactly the same" as al Qaeda.
    So your quibble is that I used the word "exactly"?

    Fine, take everything I said and replace the paraphrase to the exact quote of "turned into them". It makes my point no different. Anda's suggestion is that by hiccup suggesting to act like a "barbarian" in a specific instance that he has became them. If you say I'm reading into things by stating "exactly", I say you're reading into things by suggesting that "Turned into them" means something closer to kind of sort of similar to them in some ways. There is grey area, that's true. And what he suggested is barbaric. That's true too. But that grey area there is my point.

    If someone lies once, are they a liar? If so we should just call everyone liars because I'd give a million dollars to someone who honestly could say they've never lied about anything

    If someone has ever stollen, are they a thief? If so, may I ask if yo'uve ever left work a few minutes early before? Because if so you've stolen a tiny fraction of money from your employer...thief.

    Or how about this...

    Would someone who has one black friend but otherwise believes blacks are inferior to whites NOT be a racist because there's one instance of him acting in a different manner?

    This is my point. A barbaric action a barbarian it does not make. An occasional action one way or another, typically caused under duress or special circumstances, is a hollow and inaccurate way generally to use as a means of defining what a person is or isn't. Someone expressing their anger (Mind you this, EXPRESSING it on a god damn web forum. God help me if everyone here believes that anything anyone ever says on the internet is something they'd absolutely actually do and support if push came to shove in real life) over a single issue with such an emotional tie to it equates to them "turning into [the terrorists that committed 9/11]"

    Sorry, no...that's ridiculous, unrealistic, and frankly a disgusting way to view things.

  2. #72
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    Re: Final insult of Qaeda clowns

    And yes TPD, you're correct about the shades of Grey. Under the moral fabric that makes up their culture and society, what they're doing is not barbaric or wrong. And I wouldn't say that, based on THEIR moral fabric, they are barbaric.

    But under OUR moral fabric? Absolutely I would call them that. Which again, was my point. To suggest we have "turned into them" then either we're judging ourselves by their moral fabric (in which case those "barbaric" actions wouldn't even be barbaric) OR we're judging ourselves by our own moral fabric, in which case the level and scope of singular incidents of barbaric actions that are miniscule in the greater picture of our moral fabric measures up to them in such a way that to say it "turns us into them" would be like saying that a woman who has gone MOOOO before in her life and is lactating has "turned into a cow" because in isolated instances she's shared similar traits.

    Acting in a way similar to them in a specific situation? Sure.

    Turned into them? ludicrous.

  3. #73
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    Re: Final insult of Qaeda clowns

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    A man murders 100 people

    You've never murdered anyone. Indeed, you're a firefighter whose saved many peoples lives.

    Said firefighter is put in a situation with the man where the man admits all the murders he's done and highlights how he has not, and likely will never, be caught.

    Firefighter has the ability to murder said man.

    Firefighter murders him.

    By your absolutely ridiculous moral absolutism that is so frequent in people ONLY when it suits them to make their political point and thump their chest, the firefighter is as horrible a human being and is "the same" as that murder. Becuase it is people making arguments like that....people who in so many other instances likely love to tell us how the world is not black and white, how there's "shades of grey"...people who in some other venue would likely be sitting there lecturing people about "how would you feel if it was missiles being lobbed into your country" and asking us to understand the terrorists....the type of person who see's shades of grey in EVERYTHING when it benefits them politically to see it....suddenly, MIRACULOUSLY, doens't see shades of grey in something like this and if America or an American did or wanted to do one thing, for whatever reason, that was against the generalized moral fabric that makes up the country for the past few centuries then that equates them to "becoming" exactly the same as those who perform said immoral acts on a routine basis and who have performed no where near the same number of positives acts based on that same moral fabric.

    Idiotic. There's no other way to describe that one sided, "black and white when it suits me, grey when it doesn't", america-attacking mentality that is so readily apparent by those who routinely show their absolute love for all things negative about this country and people in it than that. Idiotic. If people that think like what you posted wish to think someone is "uncivilized" for saying in certain circumstances "torture" would be okay or that they wouldn't have an issue having seen these people executed frankly I say more power too you...because I truly don't give a **** what the opinion is of those with such a politically driven, hate filled, unrealistic, inconsistent, naive world view.
    I'm sure you feel better having got that off your chest. It's a shame that your ire obscured your logic. On the one hand you berate me and others for their moral relativism and then, on the other, you set up a hypothetical that absolutely requires a degree of moral relativism to make it comprehensible. I apply no moral absolutes to torture. In certain, very limited, circumstances torture may be required in order to save lives. I don't see the extraction of confessions fits this requirement, but who knows? Perhaps it does in very exceptional circumstances.

    The fact that it may be occasionally justifiable does not thereby transform torture into a moral, ethical or civilised thing to do. In order to defend the use of such tactics however, one does have to inhabit that world of grey and leave behind that trippy, dippy realm of moral absolutism that says that what our side does is, by definition, morally incomparable and incontestably superior with what the enemy does. We are white, the enemy is black. That Bush-like moral infantilism doesn't work any more. In this world of grey relativism we can stare our enemies right in the eye because we are in the same moral no man's land.
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  4. #74
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    Re: Final insult of Qaeda clowns

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I'm sure you feel better having got that off your chest. It's a shame that your ire obscured your logic. On the one hand you berate me and others for their moral relativism and then, on the other, you set up a hypothetical that absolutely requires a degree of moral relativism to make it comprehensible. I apply no moral absolutes to torture. In certain, very limited, circumstances torture may be required in order to save lives. I don't see the extraction of confessions fits this requirement, but who knows? Perhaps it does in very exceptional circumstances.

    The fact that it may be occasionally justifiable does not thereby transform torture into a moral, ethical or civilised thing to do. In order to defend the use of such tactics however, one does have to inhabit that world of grey and leave behind that trippy, dippy realm of moral absolutism that says that what our side does is, by definition, morally incomparable and incontestably superior with what the enemy does. We are white, the enemy is black. That Bush-like moral infantilism doesn't work any more. In this world of grey relativism we can stare our enemies right in the eye because we are in the same moral no man's land.
    Its a shame that instead of protesting mightily when briefed on the use of EITs, the democrats in attendance all asked if there wasnt MORE they could be doing to get information.

    You personally may be opposed to waterboarding terrorists as a means to extract data. You personally may believe it is torture. The courts disagree with you and both parties politicians agreed to its use.

    I am curious...the scenario is familiar...I wonder as to your response. A terrorist group has slaughtered thousands. They have plans to slaughter many more thousands. Would you A-Use any interrogation techniques available to save lives or B-allow the thousands to be slaughtered?

    THAT is the position leaders are put in. Its an ugly position...one we can make hypothetical choices with all day long. Easy for us because ultimately...we have zero real responsibility. We can afford to be morally superior.

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    Re: Final insult of Qaeda clowns

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Its a shame that instead of protesting mightily when briefed on the use of EITs, the democrats in attendance all asked if there wasnt MORE they could be doing to get information.

    You personally may be opposed to waterboarding terrorists as a means to extract data. You personally may believe it is torture. The courts disagree with you and both parties politicians agreed to its use.

    I am curious...the scenario is familiar...I wonder as to your response. A terrorist group has slaughtered thousands. They have plans to slaughter many more thousands. Would you A-Use any interrogation techniques available to save lives or B-allow the thousands to be slaughtered?

    THAT is the position leaders are put in. Its an ugly position...one we can make hypothetical choices with all day long. Easy for us because ultimately...we have zero real responsibility. We can afford to be morally superior.


    Torture is illegal. That's the Geneva Conventions that we are a signatory to. The law is clear. The moral lines are clear. We just suffered an Administration of low moral character and a lack of backbone to live by their own laws. That is what US politics breeds. Do you know any carpenters in National office, and why not? If these Guantanamo 5 scumbags were tried in a civilian court, they would have to be acquitted because no evidence can be use if torture is proved, and torture can most certainly be proved. OTOH, in the Military tribunal, the torture is classified "secret" and cannot be admitted as evidence even though it is in inumerable media reports and documentations. I'll explain it to you as a patriotic American. Take away their American rights and you can convict them. So you agree we need to get rid of those rights. Perhaps also, JUSTICE.
    Last edited by DaveFagan; 05-11-12 at 11:52 AM.

  6. #76
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    Re: Final insult of Qaeda clowns

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    The fact that it may be occasionally justifiable does not thereby transform torture into a moral, ethical or civilised thing to do.
    I personally would never suggest torture is a moral, ethical, or civilized thing to do based on my own moral, ethical, and societal views. The REASONS one is doing torture? Sure, those could be. But not the act itself.

    However...just as I do not believe someone who has lied once is correct to be classified as a liar, I don't feel that someone who has performed an immoral act is automatically worthy of being classified as immoral. Just as I said with Liars, I'd dare anyone to show me someone who has never once in their life performed an immoral act of some fashion.

    However to defend the use of such tactics however, one does have to inhabit that world of grey and leave behind that trippy, dippy realm of moral absolutism that says that what our side does is, by definition, morally incomparable and incontestably superior with what the enemy does. We are white, the enemy is black. That Bush-like moral infantilism doesn't work any more. In this world of grey relativism we can stare our enemies right in the eye because we are in the same moral no man's land.
    Except you are using this strange hybrid of absolutism and relativism, where you seem to have disdain, disgust, and an attacking attitude towards one particular side because you believe subjectively that they should be held to a higher or different standard (or maybe you just sympathize less with them so you're more prone to attack them) while at the same time are using an absolutist mindset to come to your conclussion by taking a ridiculous small comparable sample size and using it to justify suggesting a equal relationship.

  7. #77
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    Re: Final insult of Qaeda clowns

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Its a shame that instead of protesting mightily when briefed on the use of EITs, the democrats in attendance all asked if there wasnt MORE they could be doing to get information.

    You personally may be opposed to waterboarding terrorists as a means to extract data. You personally may believe it is torture. The courts disagree with you and both parties politicians agreed to its use.
    "The Courts" do not disagree with me. Some US court decisions may do, but that's a marginal consideration on a global scale. I'm fairly uninterested in what your politicians and courts decide to classify as torture, although your president has banned the practice. The UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the Third and Fourth Geneva Convention and the UN Convention Against Torture are more relevant and clearly outlaw torture. We're not just talking about waterboarding here, btw.

    I am curious...the scenario is familiar...I wonder as to your response. A terrorist group has slaughtered thousands. They have plans to slaughter many more thousands. Would you A-Use any interrogation techniques available to save lives or B-allow the thousands to be slaughtered?
    This is not what we are talking about. We are discussing whether confessions to crimes extracted under torture should be admissible in court. I'm arguing not.
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    Re: Final insult of Qaeda clowns

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Except you are using this strange hybrid of absolutism and relativism, where you seem to have disdain, disgust, and an attacking attitude towards one particular side because you believe subjectively that they should be held to a higher or different standard
    I'm not holding them to a higher standard. They (you, we, the West) are claiming a position of moral superiority over the enemy and yet are behaving in morally comparable (NB, I said 'comparable', not 'equivalent') ways to these 'barbarians', by using torture, by bombings that, while not targetting civilians, indiscriminately kill and maim non-combatants. If you wish to claim the moral high ground then you are holding yourself to a higher standard of behaviour and must be judged upon whether you demonstrate that moral superiority.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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