Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ... 5678 LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 78

Thread: Final insult of Qaeda clowns

  1. #61
    ANTI**ANTIFA
    ReverendHellh0und's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Temple of Solomon
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 05:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    75,260

    Re: Final insult of Qaeda clowns

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Well, I guess that's a start. I seem to recall that in another thread a year or so ago you were denying that waterboarding could be classed as torture. A list of times and dates is neither available nor necessary. Just using pro-torture voices it's possible to get unequivocal admission of the use of torture at Gitmo.

    Bin Laden caught through waterboarding - RedState




    CIA: Waterboarding not a pretty sight


    So yeah, I stand by my claim that AQ prisoners were tortured at Gitmo. Whether these particular defendants confessed to the crimes with which they are charged under torture, I cannot claim definitively. Were they to be allowed proper defence counsel and the court forced to operate proper disclosure, I'm sure that would be revealed.


    I think that it's not quite torture, actually. There are far far worse things than waterboarding that cause permanent damage, and calling this torture, to me, anyway seems to cast too wide a net on what it is. I think what 2 people total were waterboarded? and key information that saved lives was extracted? meh, if one has to resort to extremes, in very very rare specific cases. such as this. I can forgive. I still feel it is shy of torture, in the context it was used.


    Now if a civillian police force used it, or even if the military decided it would be used on more than the most extreme cases, I'd probably change my mind.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  2. #62
    Global Moderator
    Bodhidarma approves bigly
    Andalublue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Granada, España
    Last Seen
    11-29-17 @ 01:21 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    26,111

    Re: Final insult of Qaeda clowns

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    I think that it's not quite torture, actually. There are far far worse things than waterboarding that cause permanent damage, and calling this torture, to me, anyway seems to cast too wide a net on what it is. I think what 2 people total were waterboarded? and key information that saved lives was extracted? meh, if one has to resort to extremes, in very very rare specific cases. such as this. I can forgive. I still feel it is shy of torture, in the context it was used.


    Now if a civillian police force used it, or even if the military decided it would be used on more than the most extreme cases, I'd probably change my mind.
    Well, I think it more than a start down a very slippery slope and one that has repercussions for future combatants on whatever side. My original point was that if, as I believe happened, the defendants in this case confessed under torture then that confession should be inadmissible. If this military court accepts confession extracted under torture then it forfeits its legitimacy.

    A lot of ifs, but a pretty clear principle.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  3. #63
    ANTI**ANTIFA
    ReverendHellh0und's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Temple of Solomon
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 05:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    75,260

    Re: Final insult of Qaeda clowns

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Well, I think it more than a start down a very slippery slope and one that has repercussions for future combatants on whatever side. My original point was that if, as I believe happened, the defendants in this case confessed under torture then that confession should be inadmissible. If this military court accepts confession extracted under torture then it forfeits its legitimacy.

    A lot of ifs, but a pretty clear principle.


    Are you suggesting we set them free on a technicality?
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  4. #64
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Canada, Costa Rica
    Last Seen
    05-16-16 @ 09:45 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    31,645

    Re: Final insult of Qaeda clowns

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Are you suggesting we set them free on a technicality?
    The threat that this could happen is now why there are fewer Islamic terrorists going to Gitmo. They are just killing them in the field and stepping up the drone application.

    This was obviously foreseeable, and while conditions at Gitmo were being protested there were those of us who easily predicted this would happen. Now, because of the antics of these guys, fewer terrorists will now even get to trial. They'll be disposed of elsewhere, forgotten about, and no one will be any the wiser. These people are not noted for their intelligence.

  5. #65
    Global Moderator
    Bodhidarma approves bigly
    Andalublue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Granada, España
    Last Seen
    11-29-17 @ 01:21 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    26,111

    Re: Final insult of Qaeda clowns

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Are you suggesting we set them free on a technicality?
    Not.At. All.

    Ideally they would be handed over to the International Criminal Court as their alleged crimes have been against a multiplicity of nationalities, committed in numerous countries.

    I know that's not going to happen, so they should be tried according to US law in a bona fide US court, not a military commission. There are real issues of legitimacy in trying them this way.

    The lack of a freely-offered confession is a side issue and certainly makes little difference to the strength of the case against them. They should only be released if they are found not guilty, if the weight of evidence merits such a verdict.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  6. #66
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Last Seen
    10-13-12 @ 02:26 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    2,556

    Re: Final insult of Qaeda clowns

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    How Pious the holy act. It would seem these clowns show no remorse and have nothing but venom towards thier victims and thier families. I find thier behavior odd to say the least, i for one will be glad when these assholes achieve room temperature.
    I totally agree.


    EDIT to say only that I would not call them clowns but murderers.
    Last edited by Mya; 05-10-12 at 04:35 AM.

  7. #67
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,937

    Re: Final insult of Qaeda clowns

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    It's why we are Americans. We assume that God gives ALL men unalienable rights. These clowns will get their right to a trial, and if found guilty, will be given their right to an execution. Our legal system is one good reason why we are better than they are.
    I don't believe the posters issue was simply that they got a trial. It seemed his issue was that it took 11 years for that trial to be fully taking place and finishing. It seems to be the issue is with what the legal system has BECOME, with all its loopholes and bureaucratic red tape, rather than the constitutional basis for it. Notice for example the 6th amendment speaks of a "Speedy" trial. You would be hard pressed to suggest to me that the founders ideals of our legal system was that in which 11 years is a "speedy" trial. The general practices, ideals, and foundation upon which our legal system resides is sound and absolutely a positive for America...but that does not change that there are glaring issues with the gargantuan mass that has been piled on top of that foundation in the years since.

  8. #68
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,937

    Re: Final insult of Qaeda clowns

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I see. They behave like barbarians, so we (you) behave like barbarians. I thought the West were meant to be representing the civilised world.

    I'd say you're waving this . You've ditched civilised standards because they have. They've turned you into them. They've won.
    A man murders 100 people

    You've never murdered anyone. Indeed, you're a firefighter whose saved many peoples lives.

    Said firefighter is put in a situation with the man where the man admits all the murders he's done and highlights how he has not, and likely will never, be caught.

    Firefighter has the ability to murder said man.

    Firefighter murders him.

    By your absolutely ridiculous moral absolutism that is so frequent in people ONLY when it suits them to make their political point and thump their chest, the firefighter is as horrible a human being and is "the same" as that murder. Becuase it is people making arguments like that....people who in so many other instances likely love to tell us how the world is not black and white, how there's "shades of grey"...people who in some other venue would likely be sitting there lecturing people about "how would you feel if it was missiles being lobbed into your country" and asking us to understand the terrorists....the type of person who see's shades of grey in EVERYTHING when it benefits them politically to see it....suddenly, MIRACULOUSLY, doens't see shades of grey in something like this and if America or an American did or wanted to do one thing, for whatever reason, that was against the generalized moral fabric that makes up the country for the past few centuries then that equates them to "becoming" exactly the same as those who perform said immoral acts on a routine basis and who have performed no where near the same number of positives acts based on that same moral fabric.

    Idiotic. There's no other way to describe that one sided, "black and white when it suits me, grey when it doesn't", america-attacking mentality that is so readily apparent by those who routinely show their absolute love for all things negative about this country and people in it than that. Idiotic. If people that think like what you posted wish to think someone is "uncivilized" for saying in certain circumstances "torture" would be okay or that they wouldn't have an issue having seen these people executed frankly I say more power too you...because I truly don't give a **** what the opinion is of those with such a politically driven, hate filled, unrealistic, inconsistent, naive world view.

  9. #69
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Last Seen
    11-17-17 @ 12:48 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    19,610

    Re: Final insult of Qaeda clowns

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    the type of person who see's shades of grey in EVERYTHING when it benefits them politically to see it....suddenly, MIRACULOUSLY, doens't see shades of grey in something like this and if America or an American did or wanted to do one thing, for whatever reason, that was against the generalized moral fabric that makes up the country for the past few centuries then that equates them to "becoming" exactly the same as those who perform said immoral acts on a routine basis and who have performed no where near the same number of positives acts based on that same moral fabric..
    Obviously, people like Hicup haven't orchestrated terrorist attacks that have killed thousands of innocent people and I don't think anyone would argue that, which is why no one, except for you (to my knowledge), has said that people like Hicup are "exactly the same" as al Qaeda. Therefore, the barbarism of (most) angry Americans that want to piss on terrorists is not the exact same as that of Al Qaeda's. It's not the same because barbarism, like everything, exists on a scale - or what one would refer to in this context as "grey area." Consequently, your entire criticism of Anda's post is based on the false premise that posts like Hicup's cannot at once be barbaric and exist within the "grey area" you accuse him of ignoring.

    It is, in fact, barbaric to argue that these guys should be tortured, pissed on, have pork thrown and them and whatever other nonsense was mentioned. The entire attitude that people, even if they have committed gross acts of their own, should be treated in such manners is barbaric. That doesn't mean it isn't understandable. I can understand why Hicup would have those feelings just as I can understand why radical Muslims might have similar ones about American soldiers, but they're still barbaric. One might be more barbaric than the other, but then that's the grey area you've claimed has been thrown out in criticism of arguments like those made by Hicup.
    Last edited by ThePlayDrive; 05-10-12 at 04:03 PM.

  10. #70
    ANTI**ANTIFA
    ReverendHellh0und's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Temple of Solomon
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 05:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    75,260

    Re: Final insult of Qaeda clowns

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Not.At. All.

    Ideally they would be handed over to the International Criminal Court as their alleged crimes have been against a multiplicity of nationalities, committed in numerous countries.

    I know that's not going to happen, so they should be tried according to US law in a bona fide US court, not a military commission. There are real issues of legitimacy in trying them this way.

    The lack of a freely-offered confession is a side issue and certainly makes little difference to the strength of the case against them. They should only be released if they are found not guilty, if the weight of evidence merits such a verdict.




    I suspect you can guess my opinion on the International clown court.


    Furthermore, who is torturing them today, they who are freely bragging about thier place in terrorist events?
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ... 5678 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •