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Thread: Only 115,000 jobs added in April; unemployment rate dips to 8.1 percent

  1. #131
    Death2Globalists Matt Foley's Avatar
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    Re: Only 115,000 jobs added in April; unemployment rate dips to 8.1 percent

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Now that looks like the real employment rate.

    The Labor Force Participation Rate, or LFPR for short.

  2. #132
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    Re: Only 115,000 jobs added in April; unemployment rate dips to 8.1 percent

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Actually business isn't investing right now. Cash on hand is very high, banks are stockpiling the Fed money partly because the banks fear more foreclosures will damage the bundled securities they still hold. Non-financial companies are holding record amounts of cash according to the Wall Street Journal. Companies don't need to spend their money when the Fed is damn near giving it away.

    Investing in what right now?
    China, where labor rates are still 1/10th of what Americans earn

    If they were to invest in anything it would stimulate the economy and it doesn't seem to be a high priority right now, more like a wait and see who wins the election and by all means let's not help the one not willing to let the foxes guard the hen house.

    But none the less jobs are being added and compared to when Obama took over that alone should make the more moderate Americans hopeful.

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    Re: Only 115,000 jobs added in April; unemployment rate dips to 8.1 percent

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    So it comes back to it being the government's job to force private businesses to hire more workers...?
    Obama pushing his $800+ Billion dollar stimulus.......

    More than 90 percent of the jobs created by this plan will be in the private sector. They're not going to be make-work jobs, but jobs doing the work that America desperately needs done: jobs rebuilding our crumbling roads and bridges, repairing our dangerously deficient dams and levees so that we don't face another Katrina.

    Transcript: Obama takes questions on economy - CNN.com
    He needs to get Holder off his dead ass and find out where all that money went and why it didn't create the jobs he said it would. Sounds like a whole lot of ripoffs went on. If he doesn't by November, it'll be bye bye Barry.
    "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

  4. #134
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    Re: Only 115,000 jobs added in April; unemployment rate dips to 8.1 percent

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post
    why it didn't create the jobs he said it would. Sounds like a whole lot of ripoffs went on. If he doesn't by November, it'll be bye bye Barry.
    It should be obvious why it didn't create jobs. 1/3 was tax cuts which were relatively small. They failed to create jobs for the same reason Bush's 2008~2009 tax cuts didn't work: too small. Secondly, and more importantly, the rest of the money went as block grants to states to use for certain projects to which the states largely ignored. What states did was take federal money to fund their existing levels of spending which they couldn't do with their actual tax revenues. State spending for the most part stayed roughly flat. That alone saved millions of jobs. But it did not create jobs. States were largely able to escape the kind of layoffs the private sector saw because of stimulus money. We're seeing increases in layoffs in the public sector now primarily because stimulus money is drying up. The way the stimulus was structured makes sense why very few new jobs were created. But it makes sense why we didn't see massive job losses on top of what was already happening in 2009 and 2010. The stimulus essentially prevented a massive drop in demand. It didn't increase demand on top of baseline projections. It merely held it there. You don't create new jobs by keeping demand flat. But you do save a lot by keeping demand flat. What stimulus opponents fail (intentionally or simply due to being economically illiterate) is that without a stimulus, states would have resorted to massive cuts in 2009 at the same time the private sector was shedding jobs. The multiplier impact of that many direct job losses upon indirect spending would have been huge. Demand would literally go off the cliff. I've asked numerous people how they think demand going off a cliff is good for jobs and the economy and I have yet to get an answer. Heck I don't even get insults tossed at me. They just run.
    Last edited by obvious Child; 05-06-12 at 07:36 AM.
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    Re: Only 115,000 jobs added in April; unemployment rate dips to 8.1 percent

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    It should be obvious why it didn't create jobs. 1/3 was tax cuts which were relatively small. They failed to create jobs for the same reason Bush's 2008~2009 tax cuts didn't work: too small. Secondly, and more importantly, the rest of the money went as block grants to states to use for certain projects to which the states largely ignored. What states did was take federal money to fund their existing levels of spending which they couldn't do with their actual tax revenues. State spending for the most part stayed roughly flat. That alone saved millions of jobs. But it did not create jobs. States were largely able to escape the kind of layoffs the private sector saw because of stimulus money. We're seeing increases in layoffs in the public sector now primarily because stimulus money is drying up. The way the stimulus was structured makes sense why very few new jobs were created. But it makes sense why we didn't see massive job losses on top of what was already happening in 2009 and 2010. The stimulus essentially prevented a massive drop in demand. It didn't increase demand on top of baseline projections. It merely held it there. You don't create new jobs by keeping demand flat. But you do save a lot by keeping demand flat. What stimulus opponents fail (intentionally or simply due to being economically illiterate) is that without a stimulus, states would have resorted to massive cuts in 2009 at the same time the private sector was shedding jobs. The multiplier impact of that many direct job losses upon indirect spending would have been huge. Demand would literally go off the cliff. I've asked numerous people how they think demand going off a cliff is good for jobs and the economy and I have yet to get an answer. Heck I don't even get insults tossed at me. They just run.
    "Stimulus" was supposed to create private sector jobs. That's how Obama sold it. Not keep bloated state and federal governemnt payrolls intact.

    He's either a liar, or a most incompetent jackass. As was the Democrat Congress that hoisted this giant turd on us.

    I say that they are both liars and incompetent jackasses. And that those that support them do not care just so long as they get the gubmit teat to suckle.

  6. #136
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    Re: Only 115,000 jobs added in April; unemployment rate dips to 8.1 percent

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    It should be obvious why it didn't create jobs. 1/3 was tax cuts which were relatively small. They failed to create jobs for the same reason Bush's 2008~2009 tax cuts didn't work: too small. Secondly, and more importantly, the rest of the money went as block grants to states to use for certain projects to which the states largely ignored. What states did was take federal money to fund their existing levels of spending which they couldn't do with their actual tax revenues. State spending for the most part stayed roughly flat. That alone saved millions of jobs. But it did not create jobs. States were largely able to escape the kind of layoffs the private sector saw because of stimulus money. We're seeing increases in layoffs in the public sector now primarily because stimulus money is drying up. The way the stimulus was structured makes sense why very few new jobs were created. But it makes sense why we didn't see massive job losses on top of what was already happening in 2009 and 2010. The stimulus essentially prevented a massive drop in demand. It didn't increase demand on top of baseline projections. It merely held it there. You don't create new jobs by keeping demand flat. But you do save a lot by keeping demand flat. What stimulus opponents fail (intentionally or simply due to being economically illiterate) is that without a stimulus, states would have resorted to massive cuts in 2009 at the same time the private sector was shedding jobs. The multiplier impact of that many direct job losses upon indirect spending would have been huge. Demand would literally go off the cliff. I've asked numerous people how they think demand going off a cliff is good for jobs and the economy and I have yet to get an answer. Heck I don't even get insults tossed at me. They just run.
    The problem is the arena of deficit spending. We have been using it for so long its beginning to reach a no return point. I would argue every dollar the government taxes is a dollar that the provate sector can use more effectively and with better multipliers than the Fed. Using deficit spending to get around that economic reality is finally becoming untenable.

    We have artificial demand propped up by government wages, programs because neither side of the aisle pays the least bit of attention to the Keynesian idea of cutting during boom and spending during bust, its spend no matter what the cycle is doing. That means we need to come up with another government spending model or just quit trying the one that is not working.

    Are you suggesting that we should have been engaging in the Krugman school of thought that the stimulus should have been some monstrous 3 trillion dollar program? Because I dont think that would have passed politically on either side.

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    Re: Only 115,000 jobs added in April; unemployment rate dips to 8.1 percent

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    The problem is the arena of deficit spending. We have been using it for so long its beginning to reach a no return point. I would argue every dollar the government taxes is a dollar that the provate sector can use more effectively and with better multipliers than the Fed. Using deficit spending to get around that economic reality is finally becoming untenable.
    Listen.. the whole idea of deficit spending started in earnest with Reagan. It was among others, Cheney who laughed at the idea of a balanced budget when confronted with a large deficit in his own administration.

    Deficit spending is not the end of the world, as long as it is not massive. The problem at the moment is that ... massive. But as long as deficit spending is under the annual inflation rate, then it is not that big of a problem.

    But we also have to be realistic and ask why there is such a deficit, and as long as the right are in utter denial that their policies are a huge portion of the blame, then we can get anywhere.

    Tax breaks for the rich... that costs money!
    Unfunded programs and wars.. costs money!

    We have artificial demand propped up by government wages, programs because neither side of the aisle pays the least bit of attention to the Keynesian idea of cutting during boom and spending during bust, its spend no matter what the cycle is doing. That means we need to come up with another government spending model or just quit trying the one that is not working.
    You dont have artificial demand propped up by government wages.. it is a fallacy of the grandest scale. It does not matter if the job is government or private sector, they both add to the over all growth in the economy. Now the question is how much should be in government and that is a whole other matter, but claiming that government jobs/wages create some sort of artificial demand is utter bullcrap.

    As for the Keynesian idea of cutting during boom and spending during bust.. it is not only correct but logical. The problem as you correctly state, is that no one does that (well very few countries). One thing for sure, is never to cut government spending during a bust cycle since that would only make the bust cycle last longer and go deeper, as we saw with the great depression.

    Are you suggesting that we should have been engaging in the Krugman school of thought that the stimulus should have been some monstrous 3 trillion dollar program? Because I dont think that would have passed politically on either side.
    That would have done wonders for the economy IF done right. Problem was/is that the right has seen an easy political gain by making the "debt" issue a major problem that must be tackled here and now at all costs. Now because of the lack of economic knowledge and the direct attempt by the right to paint this as a "kitchen table" economy, then people actually think that having high debt is bad and we must cut and cut and cut to fix things. Like it or not, a nations economy can in no way be compared to the financial situation of a single person or family.

    Because of this idiotic focus on debt ratios, then everything else was put on a back burner. Instead of fixing things, the focus was on cutting. Instead of creating jobs and growth, people have been focusing on cutting and cutting... and this is disastrous for any economy.

    Do we need new ideas? Yes, but first we have to get past the debunked economic ideas that lead to this points.. which are ideas that the right are still pushing as the solution... how sick is that? What I am trying to say... the right needs to admit its faults before we can move forward and find pragmatic solutions to the problems of the world economy.
    Last edited by PeteEU; 05-06-12 at 11:04 AM.
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    Re: Only 115,000 jobs added in April; unemployment rate dips to 8.1 percent

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    ...................
    But we also have to be realistic and ask why there is such a deficit, and as long as the right are in utter denial that their policies are a huge portion of the blame, then we can get anywhere.

    Tax breaks for the rich... that costs money!
    Unfunded programs and wars.. costs money! ...........

    If you want to be taken at your word, put down the Obama class-envy Kool-Ade.

    The "Bush Tax Cuts", looking only at how much they reduced revenue (and ignoring any increase in taxable commerce they may have created) were worth about $300 billion per year in reduced revenue. Of that, about $270 B benefited those making less that $250 K per year, and only about $30 B from those "evil rich".

    $30 billion. Even the Buffet tax, if implemented, is projected to increase revenue (ignoring any negative effects it has on taxable commerce) only $35-75 billion over 10 years. At the high end, that's $7 billion off of deficits of over one trillion.

    Compare all this to deficits in $1.2 to 1.5 trillion per year. Trillion with a "T".

    That puts raising taxes on the rich, or these imaginary "tax cuts" that the leftwads foment, way down the list of what is he cause of the yearly deficits. Everyone got tax cuts. The middle class tax cuts had 10-fold the reduction impact on revenue as the cuts for the rich.

    So put down the Kool-Ade, and pick up the caffeinated coffee. The problem is not "the rich". It never has been.
    Last edited by Eighty Deuce; 05-06-12 at 11:40 AM.

  9. #139
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    Re: Only 115,000 jobs added in April; unemployment rate dips to 8.1 percent

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Listen.. the whole idea of deficit spending started in earnest with Reagan. It was among others, Cheney who laughed at the idea of a balanced budget when confronted with a large deficit in his own administration.
    Seems to me though that deficit spending as a percentage of GDP in the current administration has overshot any of the previous republican presidents that you list for specific partisan purposes here, combined.

    Deficit spending is not the end of the world, as long as it is not massive. The problem at the moment is that ... massive.
    And the argument from the far left, progressives here and in the nation is that it wasn't "massive" enough. That's a problem, a failure.

    But as long as deficit spending is under the annual inflation rate, then it is not that big of a problem.
    The inflation rates reports seem to be being produced by administration hacks, so are you arguing that we should just accept that everything is ok because the administration says so?

    But we also have to be realistic and ask why there is such a deficit, and as long as the right are in utter denial that their policies are a huge portion of the blame, then we can get anywhere.

    Tax breaks for the rich... that costs money!
    Unfunded programs and wars.. costs money!
    Oh come on...This President came into office with a majority in congress, and senate. Obama extended the tax rates under Bush, increased the roles of the welfare state, and not only continued the war machine, including GITMO, but in fact surged in Afghanistan. What the hell are you talking about here?

    You dont have artificial demand propped up by government wages.. it is a fallacy of the grandest scale.
    I remember the reports when the vaunted stimulus money was being spent on projects, that a person could be hired for example to hold that stop sign at a construction project, and it lasted say for a day, or a week, then the job was done and the person was let go again, yet the job was counted in the monthly reporting to "Sherriff Joe" as a job created. Then a week later the same person working for the same company does another stimulus job somewhere else within town for a week, and another job reported....

    The numbers out of this band of crooks is a pure lie.

    It does not matter if the job is government or private sector, they both add to the over all growth in the economy. Now the question is how much should be in government and that is a whole other matter, but claiming that government jobs/wages create some sort of artificial demand is utter bullcrap.
    By that reasoning, then every job should be a 'government job'.... Is that how you feel Pete?

    As for the Keynesian idea of cutting during boom and spending during bust.. it is not only correct but logical. The problem as you correctly state, is that no one does that (well very few countries). One thing for sure, is never to cut government spending during a bust cycle since that would only make the bust cycle last longer and go deeper, as we saw with the great depression.
    Please explain.

    That would have done wonders for the economy IF done right. Problem was/is that the right has seen an easy political gain by making the "debt" issue a major problem that must be tackled here and now at all costs. Now because of the lack of economic knowledge and the direct attempt by the right to paint this as a "kitchen table" economy, then people actually think that having high debt is bad and we must cut and cut and cut to fix things. Like it or not, a nations economy can in no way be compared to the financial situation of a single person or family.

    Because of this idiotic focus on debt ratios, then everything else was put on a back burner. Instead of fixing things, the focus was on cutting. Instead of creating jobs and growth, people have been focusing on cutting and cutting... and this is disastrous for any economy.

    Do we need new ideas? Yes, but first we have to get past the debunked economic ideas that lead to this points.. which are ideas that the right are still pushing as the solution... how sick is that? What I am trying to say... the right needs to admit its faults before we can move forward and find pragmatic solutions to the problems of the world economy.

    Oh please...So the only thing that has hampered a recovery in your eyes, is that 'stupid, hyperpartisan, republican idiots' have not allowed Obama to get his way in every way?

    give me a break.


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  10. #140
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    Re: Only 115,000 jobs added in April; unemployment rate dips to 8.1 percent

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Listen.. the whole idea of deficit spending started in earnest with Reagan. It was among others, Cheney who laughed at the idea of a balanced budget when confronted with a large deficit in his own administration.

    Deficit spending is not the end of the world, as long as it is not massive. The problem at the moment is that ... massive. But as long as deficit spending is under the annual inflation rate, then it is not that big of a problem.

    But we also have to be realistic and ask why there is such a deficit, and as long as the right are in utter denial that their policies are a huge portion of the blame, then we can get anywhere.

    Tax breaks for the rich... that costs money!
    Unfunded programs and wars.. costs money!



    You dont have artificial demand propped up by government wages.. it is a fallacy of the grandest scale. It does not matter if the job is government or private sector, they both add to the over all growth in the economy. Now the question is how much should be in government and that is a whole other matter, but claiming that government jobs/wages create some sort of artificial demand is utter bullcrap.

    As for the Keynesian idea of cutting during boom and spending during bust.. it is not only correct but logical. The problem as you correctly state, is that no one does that (well very few countries). One thing for sure, is never to cut government spending during a bust cycle since that would only make the bust cycle last longer and go deeper, as we saw with the great depression.



    That would have done wonders for the economy IF done right. Problem was/is that the right has seen an easy political gain by making the "debt" issue a major problem that must be tackled here and now at all costs. Now because of the lack of economic knowledge and the direct attempt by the right to paint this as a "kitchen table" economy, then people actually think that having high debt is bad and we must cut and cut and cut to fix things. Like it or not, a nations economy can in no way be compared to the financial situation of a single person or family.

    Because of this idiotic focus on debt ratios, then everything else was put on a back burner. Instead of fixing things, the focus was on cutting. Instead of creating jobs and growth, people have been focusing on cutting and cutting... and this is disastrous for any economy.

    Do we need new ideas? Yes, but first we have to get past the debunked economic ideas that lead to this points.. which are ideas that the right are still pushing as the solution... how sick is that? What I am trying to say... the right needs to admit its faults before we can move forward and find pragmatic solutions to the problems of the world economy.
    The problem isn't just tax cuts for the rich -- it's tax cuts in general + overspending on defense and entitlements. Republicans whine that 47% of Americans aren't paying FIT, but it is their policies that produced that result. Amazingly, when you lard the tax code up with enough tax cuts and tax credits, you eventually end up in a situation where people aren't paying any taxes at all. Now if we can just get it to where the rich aren't paying any taxes at all our deficit problems will be solved! Conservative "logic".
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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