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Thread: Elizabeth Warren’s embattled campaign: Cherokee tie found 5 generations ago

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    Re: Elizabeth Warren’s embattled campaign: Cherokee tie found 5 generations ago

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    As I pointed out on another Warren thread. She throws out sophmoric social theory that has little merit outside of academia and frankly doesn't translate to the real world. She has less than adequate grasp of economics yet opines on it and looks like a total idiot.
    In your opinion of course.

    I guess if you want someone who doesn't have any practical experience in the real world or working knowledge of things setting policy.....nothing. However I want someone with a modicum of common sense it means everything.

    Who cares? Seriously if someone cheats you don't reward them with power, you throw them in a place where they see the sun approximately never. Considering the cheating aspect........possibly everything is affected by the cheating. Let me ask. Would you want to drive on a bridge constructed by someone who cheated at engineering? Or would you trust a financial manager who cheated his way to the top? If not, why would you trust a stupid ass that cheated her way into college?
    It just might actually.
    I don't give a flying **** what "the voters want" I care about actually following the constitution. Anyone too stupid or dishonest to do that does not deserve power.
    So basically her issue with her heritage has no impact upon her capacity or competency as a Senator (as I suspected). Claiming improper heritage is hardly consistent with your cheating spiel.

    I'm pretty sure you can't. See, we've prosecuted fraud for years, bullying, while bad, is only NOW an issue. So, you are going to defend someone who committed fraud because you agree with the platform?
    On the contrary, the reasons you just gave have nothing to do with her capacity. What makes that any different from being a high school bully?

    And no, I'm not going to defend her for any reason. I'm just pointing out, even by your own admission, it has nothing to do with her capacity as a potential Senator. You're after her for another reason and hiding it behind this. Sure it was wrong (assuming she did it) to claim improper heritage. But you yourself cannot provide reasons why it's relevant in this context.

    I don't give a **** about this for the same reason I don't give a **** about Romney being a high school bully. It has no impact upon her capacity as a potential Senator.
    Last edited by obvious Child; 05-12-12 at 04:52 AM.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Elizabeth Warren’s embattled campaign: Cherokee tie found 5 generations ago

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    In your opinion of course.
    Well, my opinion, and the opinions of every behavioral science, poli-sci, and economics professors I've ever had in college. But whatever right?



    So basically her issue with her heritage has no impact upon her capacity or competency as a Senator (as I suspected). Claiming improper heritage is hardly consistent with your cheating spiel.
    Dude, she's an idiot, get over the Warren love. Frankly she shouldn't be a senator if she comitted fraud. So we have a mental defect and possible criminal behavior(fraud)



    On the contrary, the reasons you just gave have nothing to do with her capacity. What makes that any different from being a high school bully?
    Let's see, bullies aren't necessarily that bright, but cheats are typically stupid. So pick your poison, but cheats are typically the worst of the stupid. But whatever, you politically have a thing for Warren.

    And no, I'm not going to defend her for any reason. I'm just pointing out, even by your own admission, it has nothing to do with her capacity as a potential Senator. You're after her for another reason and hiding it behind this.
    Stop. You don't get to assign what I think she would do as senator, which frankly I think she would be good at since they typically have an undeserved sense of self worth and no actual value to society. Warren is a worthless excuse for an American citizen, a possible fraud, and an idiot.....period.

    I don't give a **** about this for the same reason I don't give a **** about Romney being a high school bully. It has no impact upon her capacity as a potential Senator.
    I don't give two ****s about Romney, franky I wish he would have left the nomination process and done the world a favor. I think he deserves all the bad press he gets and I hope it hurts. That said, if he bullied a guy years ago it has no bearing on his actual accomplishments. If Warren got any single admission to a prestigious school due to fraud it set her up for anything that followed, and judging by her completely moronic statements.......her actual accomplishments are zero.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Elizabeth Warren’s embattled campaign: Cherokee tie found 5 generations ago

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Well, my opinion, and the opinions of every behavioral science, poli-sci, and economics professors I've ever had in college. But whatever right?
    You really expect me to believe you've had a discussion over whether she is qualified with every professor in those fields? C'mon. You expect that to fly here? You know better than that.

    Dude, she's an idiot, get over the Warren love. Frankly she shouldn't be a senator if she committed fraud. So we have a mental defect and possible criminal behavior(fraud)
    I don't give a **** about Warren. I just see you being hypocritical here. Your own statements admit it has nothing to do with her capacity.

    Let's see, bullies aren't necessarily that bright, but cheats are typically stupid. So pick your poison, but cheats are typically the worst of the stupid. But whatever, you politically have a thing for Warren.
    Actually some of the cheats are some of the brightest people on the planet. Michael Malkin for example. Bill Gates essentially stole DoS and passed it off as his own.

    Stop. You don't get to assign what I think she would do as senator, which frankly I think she would be good at since they typically have an undeserved sense of self worth and no actual value to society. Warren is a worthless excuse for an American citizen, a possible fraud, and an idiot.....period.
    Watch: Stop. You don't get to assign what I think she would do as senator, which frankly I don't know if she'd be good at especially since Senators these days frankly don't do much anything as the Senate has become a deathtrap for any legislation, good or bad. Warren is a worthless excuse for an American citizen for reasons you are largely unwilling to actually discuss and instead attack her for what seems to be a vendetta as you utilized an argument you admit has nothing to do with her capacity as a Senator.

    I don't give two ****s about Romney, franky I wish he would have left the nomination process and done the world a favor. I think he deserves all the bad press he gets and I hope it hurts. That said, if he bullied a guy years ago it has no bearing on his actual accomplishments. If Warren got any single admission to a prestigious school due to fraud it set her up for anything that followed, and judging by her completely moronic statements.......her actual accomplishments are zero.
    Fair enough on Romney, but you do seem to have a problem with Warren that extends well beyond what shouldn't matter and you're using this topic as your method of attack. So what really is your real problem with her?
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    And this is where we have seperation. We have biases for and against, in her own words she quoted her family using the "Cherokee heritage" argument, something I've heard. I choose to believe if she is stupid enough to say something like that on record she probably did actually cheat.
    In other words, you choose to believe the worst despite being proven wrong repeatedly because you disagree with Warren's politics -- pretty much the definition of political hackery.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Elizabeth Warren’s embattled campaign: Cherokee tie found 5 generations ago

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    How about this:

    Fraud Law & Legal Definition Pretty much a more wordy version of what I said, there was intent, unless Warren could prove that she did not know her family history was full of ****.
    Ah, so you think that our justice system puts the burden on a defendant to prove his or her innocence? How amusing.

    But in the real world, fraud could never be proven against Warren. Even if she had claimed Cherokee heritage -- which seems NOT TO BE THE CASE -- there is no evidence that she didn't believe she had that heritage, there is no evidence that anyone relied that representation, and there is no evidence that anyone was damaged by the representation.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Elizabeth Warren’s embattled campaign: Cherokee tie found 5 generations ago

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    O'really? Is there any evidence that she wasn't Cherokee? I guess the author doesn't know, so the assumption is that she was not? Right....
    Gosh, what's more logically sound? Assuming something for which there is no evidence, or assuming something is NOT if there is no evidence?

    And how many Cherokees born circa 1770 would have been named "Margaret Brackin Smith," nicknamed "Peggy"? Possible? Remotely, sure. Likely? No. Where's the evidence she was?


    What about her ... you know ... ACTUAL father, as opposed to her grandfather? No mention of whether he had Cherokee blood? Apparently the author doesn't know, so he ASSUMES that the father wasn't Cherokee.
    Do you have any evidence that he was?


    In other words, she was (or APPEARS to have been?) Warren's great-great-great-grandmother.
    You're implying someone disputes that.


    False. Under the best case scenario, even posited by the Breitbart author, Warren's great-great-great grandmother could have been 3/4 Cherokee -- not 1/2 Cherokee.
    Could have been; no actual evidence she was.



    Right, and that would be what we call pretty damned good evidence.


    You took no evidence classes in law school?

    And why would HE be more reliable than OC Sarah Smith herself, who reported herself as "white" on three Census forms, or her husband did?

    Would SHE not know her own race? Would her husband not?



    If your mother was Cherokee, don't you think you'd know it? Do you think you might know better than some half-assed geneologist looking at dubious historical records 200 years later? Probably not.
    Right, 'coz everything in everyone's family history which gets passed down orally within the family always pans out. And no one ever makes claims about their heritage which aren't true.

    And gosh, do you think he might have been prompted to make such a thing up, considering he was marrying in OKLAHOMA in 1894, and there were land allotment benefits to having Indian blood at the time?


    There is no evidence that her father "absolutely was not". The claimed evidence is that the GRANDFATHER was not Cherokee.
    Correct; I take that back.


    The Breitbart author apparently couldn't find anything on the grandMOTHER (or chose not to report on her)
    Oh, nice. Right, he's hiding evidence.

    and so just ASSUMES that she wasn't Cherokee.
    That's a darn sight more in keeping with logic than "I have no idea, so I'll substitute what I prefer."


    But of course, Warren being a liberal Democrat, you're going to cling to your Breitbart article no matter what.
    Hardly. If actual documentation comes along proving Cherokee blood, then so be it.


    No matter that the author is a self-professed geneology HOBBYIST, and the author who found 1/32 Cherokee blood is a well respected professional geneologist.
    He didn't say "1/32 Cherokee blood."

    She would be 1⁄32nd of Elizabeth Warren’s total ancestry,” noted genealogist Christopher Child said, referring to the candidate’s great-great-great-grandmother, O.C. Sarah Smith, who is listed on an Oklahoma marriage certificate as Cherokee. Smith is an ancestor on Warren’s mother’s side, Child said.
    This is not in dispute. Whether or not she was a Cherokee is.

    Besides, apparently Child and his organization can't produce this document:

    Warren: I used minority listing to share heritage - BostonHerald.com

    Warren’s statements come as genealogists at the New England Historic Genealogical Society were unable to back up earlier accounts that her great great great grandmother is Cherokee. While Warren’s great great great grandmother, named O.C. Sarah Smith, is listed on a electronic transcript of a 1894 marriage application as Cherokee, the genealogists are unable to find the actual record or a photograhic copy of it, Society spokesman Tom Champoux said. A copy of the marriage license itself has been located, but unlike the application, it does not list Smith’s ethnicity.

    So, all of this may be moot, because apparently the claimed documentation of Indian blood might not even exist at all. More here, along with an image of the marriage license and certificate:

    Warren's Cherokee Claim Based on Family Newsletter; No Marriage License Application to Be Found
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Elizabeth Warren’s embattled campaign: Cherokee tie found 5 generations ago

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Gosh, what's more logically sound? Assuming something for which there is no evidence, or assuming something is NOT if there is no evidence?

    And how many Cherokees born circa 1770 would have been named "Margaret Brackin Smith," nicknamed "Peggy"? Possible? Remotely, sure. Likely? No. Where's the evidence she was?




    Do you have any evidence that he was?




    You're implying someone disputes that.




    Could have been; no actual evidence she was.







    You took no evidence classes in law school?

    And why would HE be more reliable than OC Sarah Smith herself, who reported herself as "white" on three Census forms, or her husband did?

    Would SHE not know her own race? Would her husband not?





    Right, 'coz everything in everyone's family history which gets passed down orally within the family always pans out. And no one ever makes claims about their heritage which aren't true.

    And gosh, do you think he might have been prompted to make such a thing up, considering he was marrying in OKLAHOMA in 1894, and there were land allotment benefits to having Indian blood at the time?




    Correct; I take that back.




    Oh, nice. Right, he's hiding evidence.



    That's a darn sight more in keeping with logic than "I have no idea, so I'll substitute what I prefer."




    Hardly. If actual documentation comes along proving Cherokee blood, then so be it.




    He didn't say "1/32 Cherokee blood."



    This is not in dispute. Whether or not she was a Cherokee is.

    Besides, apparently Child and his organization can't produce this document:

    Warren: I used minority listing to share heritage - BostonHerald.com




    So, all of this may be moot, because apparently the claimed documentation of Indian blood might not even exist at all. More here, along with an image of the marriage license and certificate:

    Warren's Cherokee Claim Based on Family Newsletter; No Marriage License Application to Be Found
    So in other words, you have no real response to my point that the hobbyist, Breitbart geneologist assumed facts not in evidence, and of course when he assumed them, he assumed them in the light least favorable to Warren, notwithstanding the fact that he claimed he was stating a best-case scenario for her? That's what I thought.

    I agree that it would be good to see the marriage document that the certified geneologist relied on. It would also be good to see the census documents that the hobbyist geneologist relied on.

    Because, FYI, the early censuses didn't even ASK what the race was of specific members of the household. WTF?!

    http://www2.census.gov/prod2/decenni...s/1830a-01.pdf

    Now you might still surmise SOMETHING from that sort of data, if you made a bunch of unfounded assumptions, but WTF?! Oklahoma wasn't even a STATE until 1907, so it wasn't included in the census!

    Well, maybe she was living in Tennessee as the hobbyist claims? Problem is, it appears that in the early census, members of assimilated indian tribes were listed as WHITE. Where did I get that piece of info.? From the link in the hobbyist's own article.

    http://northshorejournal.org/could-e...-be-a-minority
    Last edited by AdamT; 05-12-12 at 02:41 PM.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Elizabeth Warren’s embattled campaign: Cherokee tie found 5 generations ago

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    In other words, you choose to believe the worst despite being proven wrong repeatedly because you disagree with Warren's politics -- pretty much the definition of political hackery.
    Dude, stop. You do not get to assign my position. You likewise have chosen to ignore everything else because you want Democrats to win.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Elizabeth Warren’s embattled campaign: Cherokee tie found 5 generations ago

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Ah, so you think that our justice system puts the burden on a defendant to prove his or her innocence? How amusing.
    And where in my history have I EVER said that? That's right, nowhere. However if she were to be charged with fraud she would have to prove that she made a mistake in good faith, but then again she CAN'T do that because she wasn't a chartered member of the nation. See I'm NOT an attorney, you CLAIM to be and I'm having to explain this to you.

    But in the real world, fraud could never be proven against Warren. Even if she had claimed Cherokee heritage -- which seems NOT TO BE THE CASE -- there is no evidence that she didn't believe she had that heritage, there is no evidence that anyone relied that representation, and there is no evidence that anyone was damaged by the representation.
    Okay, you are being less than honest and I'm done with you here. Anyone who can look at this and say there is no chance of charging fraud is lying to someone, quite possibly themselves more than anything.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Elizabeth Warren’s embattled campaign: Cherokee tie found 5 generations ago

    Ah, so you think that our justice system puts the burden on a defendant to prove his or her innocence? How amusing.
    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    And where in my history have I EVER said that? That's right, nowhere.
    Here is where you said it -- STOP LYING.

    How about this:

    Fraud Law & Legal Definition Pretty much a more wordy version of what I said, there was intent, unless Warren could prove that she did not know her family history was full of ****.
    So you either think that the Burden is on Warren to DISPROVE knowledge, or you don't think that Warren has that burden of proof and you lied? Which is it?
    Last edited by AdamT; 05-12-12 at 03:06 PM.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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